Labour rejects concept of Social mobility

[Diable Rouge]

Do you want to stop Brexit, or do you just want Labour to put on a show?

Surely the Labour principles on Europe should be philosophical and ideological, rather than dependent on the whims of others?

[Lucy Waterman]

Reason enough for a second referendum to be a bad idea.

[Lucy Waterman]

Surely the Labour principles on Europe should be philosophical and ideological, rather than dependent on the whims of others?

Nah, Brexit has shown Corbynism is happy to act as a doctrine of shallow expediency, not principle.

[johnr]

At this point, a realist - in 2016 there would have be a point in respecting it, given the general expectation would have been an EEA relationship with the EU, but as the Tories have lurched ever more rapidly in the direction of no deal, Labour would be perfectly entitled to call for a second referendum that precisely delineates the political and economic position of the UK, and if the electorate then opted for WTO terms, then so be it.

Labour - Corbyn, Starmer, McDonnell, Thornberry, Gardiner, etc - are calling for a public vote on whatever gets decided, whether they've negotiated it, or not, in any scenario. I don't know why people here aren't getting this, and are continuing to argue the point - I can understand that the message is nuanced/unclear/not binary/not yet full-throated enough for the people 'out there' (and by that I mean the general discourse, and how folk from different sides of the debate choose to represent it), but I hope(d) for a bit better analysis from OTF.

[San Bernardhinault]

Do you want to stop Brexit, or do you just want Labour to put on a show?

Me?

I want to stop Brexit. Labour has done literally nothing to work to achieve that. I, personally, think that policies proposed by the opposition can influence the nature of public discourse. That's why it's important that they make these policies about social mobility, even if there's not a commons majority to do anything about it.

I also think having the leadership of the main opposition party presenting the case for why Brexit will be disastrous is one of the few things that could work to shift public opinion. If the public could have clear eyed explanations from the main opposition about how the core government policy is a complete fuck up (rather than fussing about which way the government implements its disastrous policy) , and that forced the public to shift its opinion - something that won't currently happen as all the major media sources and all the main parties are still not pointing out the obvious - that would be the one thing that might force a government rethink.

[Lucy Waterman]

Post. Well said.

Rumours that Thornberry and Starmer about to be reshuffled.

[johnr]

Rumours in the Observer? Let's wait and see.

[Nefertiti2]

Me?

I want to stop Brexit. Labour has done literally nothing to work to achieve that. I, personally, think that policies proposed by the opposition can influence the nature of public discourse. That's why it's important that they make these policies about social mobility, even if there's not a commons majority to do anything about it.

I also think having the leadership of the main opposition party presenting the case for why Brexit will be disastrous is one of the few things that could work to shift public opinion. If the public could have clear eyed explanations from the main opposition about how the core government policy is a complete fuck up (rather than fussing about which way the government implements its disastrous policy) , and that forced the public to shift its opinion - something that won't currently happen as all the major media sources and all the main parties are still not pointing out the obvious - that would be the one thing that might force a government rethink.

There was a referendum which voted narrowly in favour of Brexit.

From Cailfornia or Ireland you may be able to imagine some Avengers superpower that will stop Brexit. Those of us who actually live here - and deal with the British media- don't share your fantasies.

[San Bernardhinault]

I think it's unlikely to be stopped, but I don't understand why you wouldn't try.

The Iraq war was unlikely to be stopped. Do you think people made a mistake by trying? The poll tax was unlikely to be stopped. Do you think people made a mistake by trying?

The latter case is particularly informative - because when it turned out to be as disastrous as people said, it was pretty rapidly removed. Which I think is the second best case scenario. Without any leadership from any political party yet, how are the public going to be willing to push to re-enter the EU when Brexit turns disastrous? They'll be left with both party lines about how Brexit could be good for Britain so we just need the right party to make the best Brexit better.

I also want to reply to JohnR, who's said that "Labour are calling for a public vote on whatever gets decided, whether they've negotiated it, or not, in any scenario. I don't know why people here aren't getting this, and are continuing to argue the point". What Labour are not doing is calling for a public vote and then explaining why it's important - they're still not committing to wanting any outcome. They've never said they'd campaign for Remain and now if they do, after years of fannying around, it was look like it's for political expediency reasons rather than because they think that being in the EU would be far, far better than being out. Instead, this position is utterly passive: "We want a second vote, but won't tell people what to vote for. We just don't want to commit to a position ourselves. Just have the public make the decision while we sit around."

[Nefertiti2]

The poll tax was stopped. Once it was imposed.

Corbyn- despite being permanently under attack from the press and broadcast media is supposed to magically find a way to stop Brexit before it happens,

reminder-
He's not Prime Minister

He cannot command a majority in Parliament.

A number of "anti Brexit" parties (Change UK Lib Dems) have said they will not vote against the government in a no-confidence motion.

[Nefertiti2]

Post. Well said.

Rumours that Thornberry and Starmer about to be reshuffled.

the story seems to amount to :

Some people in the Labour Party would like to get rid of Tom Watson because he's a devious fucker

But because he's a devious fucker he's tried to suggest it was about Emily Thornberry and Keir Starmer

[Lang Spoon]

You mean there was a majority vote to leave, and he has accepted that,

2 countries of 4 didn't vote to leave. You are about to lose all votes in the Remainer country you still stand in (not just cos of Brexit, but it's a big part of why you are fighting for 4th with the Greens in scotland). If you must respect the wishes of Racist Island, why the fuck rule out staying with in the SM, unless you are pandering to racists, or are an idiot who believes the Single Market precludes State Aid. Leaving on a customs Union alone means economic death.

[Lang Spoon]

There was a referendum which voted narrowly in favour of Brexit.

From Cailfornia or Ireland you may be able to imagine some Avengers superpower that will stop Brexit. Those of us who actually live here - and deal with the British media- don't share your fantasies.

those of us in Ireland will very much have to deal with the consequences of your ridiculous fantasies also. And my entire family live in Scotland and I'm more than a wee bit concerned how this is playing out. San B speaks for me. Quixotic fights against the Iraq war are only right and proper, being fucking useless in the face of economic suicide we are supposed to accept as realism? Voting with the Tory Govt to trigger Article 50 is the most idiotic thing the Corbyn bench has done and we will live with the consequences through no deal and beyond.

[HeavyDracula]

Tiring STOP BREXIT platitudes aside, the policy announcement yesterday is exactly what I joined the Labour Party for.

I’ve always thought that “social mobility” was an odd concept, anyway, because it legitimises the class system, implies that “moving up” is “better”, and rewards those with the ability over those not so fortunate. So, yeah, let’s just make things more equal for everyone!

[anton pulisov]

Yeah, Corbyn did help trigger Article 50 when there was still no agreement about what Brexit would look like.

Blood all over his hands, I'm afraid.

And that's nothing to do with being either pro or anti Brexit. That's just pure incompetence. You don't trigger a two year time limited process with the EU without any kind of idea of what you want.

[anton pulisov]

There was a referendum which voted narrowly in favour of Brexit.

Was leaving the single market on the referendum ballot? Cause that's what Corbyn wants to do.

[Nefertiti2]

"During the transition period, Labour would seek to remain in a customs union with the EU and within the single market. That means we would abide by the existing rules of both.

[Nefertiti2]

meanwhile after another day where the same faces are making the same points about all the things that Corbyn should have done- without spelling out a coherent strategy whereby he - or anyone else - can stop Brexit, Murdoch has made his move

The next Prime Minister, Appointed by the Conservative Party.

[URL]https://twitter.com/thesundaytimes/status/1137459503853645824[/URL]

[anton pulisov]

"during the transition period"

...

and after that?

[Nefertiti2]

"during the transition period"

...

and after that?

who knows? hopefully the transition takes so long that it won't be an issue.

[anton pulisov]

Corbyn- despite being permanently under attack from the press and broadcast media is supposed to magically find a way to stop Brexit before it happens,

reminder-
He's not Prime Minister

He cannot command a majority in Parliament.

I don't understand this. So there's no point in Corbyn having a clear position on one of the most important issue of the day, because he doesn't have a majority and is not Prime Minister? And because the media are against him?

Well, why have a position on anything then? Cause the media aren't going to sit back and let him construct a democratic socialist UK either.

[johnr]

He had a clear position, when we had the referendum. He campaigned to Remain, and has said he would again. (Just for clarity, that means that he thinks remaining in the EU is better than leaving.)

He has a clear position, which is that, having voted to leave, we now have to negotiate as good a deal as we can, and then put that to a public vote. When it comes to that vote - for which we don't yet know the question, as that is in the hands of the government - we'll see what Corbyn and Labour back. (Fwiw, I think they'll back Remain again, even if they've been in a position to negotiate the deal.)

I can understand that, it doesn't seem that difficult to me. I also think that it's more realistic than just shouting 'Stop Brexit!' and 'We Should Remain!'.

[anton pulisov]

But to "negotiate" you need to have a stated preferred option that is compatible with reality.

If Corbyn's position is vote for me and we'll negotiate a great deal, the best deal, but we can't really tell you what it is yet... Then that sounds broadly similar to May, Johnson or Trump.

"Stop Brexit" or "We should Remain" is at least a clear position.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Ugh, jesus. Look. It's fucking 2019. and labour is still looking to negotiate a soft brexit on the basis of a Unicorn agreement. It's time to put that slab of vegan gammon in a home, and stop him from sabotaging opposition to brexit. Even if Labour finally decide to support a second referendum, they will have wasted over three fucking years, where they kept pretending that a good brexit was possible, rather than pointing out that it is going to kill 10 times as many people as austerity.

[Nefertiti2]

We've been over this many times. Barnier was quite prepared to listen to Corbyn's proposal

Sources close to the talks between Mr Corbyn and Michel Barnier say the EU's chief negotiator was sympathetic to Labour's ideas of membership of a customs union and a closer alignment with the single market.

Speak to EU diplomats and officials in Brussels privately and they have always seen the Labour plans as more favourable.

In fact, some go so far as to say that the EU Commission has actually drafted Labour's plans.

So why I wonder do you waste so much time foaming at the mouth about the Labour party?

St