Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Labour rejects concept of Social mobility

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #26
    Fucking right it's not. Leaving or not trying to mitigate the hell of leaving by refusing to stay in the Single Market is pure madness but. Your economy will wither and all your plans of a just society will be ashes.

    Comment


      #27
      I agree with all this, but it doesn’t in itself detract from the quality of the policy on a theoretical basis.

      I’m not sure i’d trust Jeremy and Seumas to pick spuds. Lord knows what they’d come back with.

      Comment


        #28
        The migrant crisis had led to thousands drowning in the Mediterranean. The lack of sanctions against the likes of Hungary or Poland
        OK, and wouldn't it make more sense then, for Corbyn to rally for the UK to remain in the EU and then propose humane treatment of migrants? If Labour gets into power in the UK, but has no more influence at the EU table thanks to Lexit, then how are the Labour party going to help the migrants?

        The way the European Debt crisis protected the banks against the people of the EU, chiefly because Schäuble appears never to have heard of Keynes.
        This was a classic case of there not being enough EU, rather than too much EU. Schauble was not elected by the people of Europe, he was elected by the people of Germany. So he did his democratic duty of getting the best deal possible for the German taxpayer, at the expense of Greece. The question that has to be asked therefore, is why the German domestic finance minister was de facto running the Euro. And here again, is where a strong Labour government in the UK, asserting itself as an active EU member, could make a difference there and require pan-European democratic accountability for the running of the Euro. The UK is in a powerful position to do so, because they can dangle the carrot of possibly joining the Eurozone once it has been properly reformed. Threatening Lexit does nothing.

        And yes imposed neo-liberal open markets are counter productive if their main aim is to force wages down.
        As for the privatisation of, e.g., railways, there was indeed an EU directive in the early 1990s to privatise railways. Of course, Tory UK did it straight away. They'd have done it anyway with or without the EU directive. It was the late 1980s and early 1990s: that's what people all over the post-Soviet Reaganomic world were cheerleading for back then, and those EU directives simply reflected the democratic will of the people of Europe at that time. Even so, there is always leeway: over a quarter of a century after that directive, France's SNCF is still state-owned and has a near monopoly on the French railways. And all hell will freeze over before the SNCF is privatised.

        As for driving down wages. Sweden, an EU state, has very powerful unions, meaning that you don't see the low wages that you see in the UK. There's nobody in the EU stopping the UK from doing the same thing that Sweden has done.

        The thing is, the socialist utopia that Corbyn wants to achieve, including the sensible policies you mentioned upthread, can be done with the UK remaining an EU member. Brexit provides no new tools to Corbyn that he doesn't already have while still remaining in the EU, in exchange for giving away all bargaining power the UK has in Europe, as well as burning down the UK economy. It is literally the most pointless thing ever. Labour should be shouting that from the rooftops.

        The problem with the UK has always been that most UK politicians (left or right) don't understand what the EU is.
        Last edited by anton pulisov; 08-06-2019, 19:55.

        Comment


          #29
          What conversation are we having here? What I think is wrong with the EU- which was what you asked me- or what policy do I think Jeremy Corbyn should follow?

          I think if 1) Britain were still in the EU when and if 2) Jeremy Corbyn were to become Prime Minister I would hope he would pursue many of the policies you suggest- though how he should reverse the neo-liberalist measures that other countries have considered NINO- neoliberalist in name only - is a different matter.

          However I don't know how a scenario where both 1 and 2 are possible, without the support of other parties -and some parts of his own - who have refused to offer him that support.

          The German constitution protects the right to join a trade union. The pre Corbyn labour party didn't dare- or didn't want to reverse any of the anti trade union laws.
          Last edited by Nefertiti2; 08-06-2019, 20:20.

          Comment


            #30
            Testify, Bryan.

            Comment


              #31
              As Brian says above, the very issue with the European debt crisis was that the creation of the European Central Bank wasn't simultaneously accompanied by a European Fiscal Reserve, similar to the American entity, so that cashflows from Germany, France etc would have covered the financial crises, so the individual national governments can be blamed for not coming to an agreement, rather than viewing it as an ideological position by Brussels, per se. As for not punishing Hungary and Poland, the rules require unanimity, rather than a majority vote, so Warsaw will always defend Budapest, and vice-versa.

              Comment


                #32
                While getting bored with Part Three of Planet Of The Daleks, I thought I’d check the 2015 leadership candidates’ current Brexit positions to see where we could have been.

                Kendall - second referendum
                Cooper - repeatedly championed legislation to prevent no deal, otherwise Lexit
                Burnham - second referendum
                Corbyn - TBC
                Last edited by Lucy Waterman; 08-06-2019, 20:38.

                Comment


                  #33
                  If TBC is unfair, happy to substitute “Lexit”.

                  Comment


                    #34
                    I think TBC is fair.

                    I also think that "respecting the result of the referendum" "negotiated agreement for Norway plus" or "Single Market and Customs Union" which were seen as options in response to the referendum seem to have disappeared from the menu.

                    "Lexit" seems to have changed in meaning from "Actively wanting to leave the EU" to "being on the left and accepting that there was a referendum which voted to leave".

                    Comment


                      #35
                      Originally posted by Lucy Waterman View Post
                      While getting bored with Part Three of Planet Of The Daleks, I thought I’d check the 2015 leadership candidates’ current Brexit positions to see where we could have been.

                      Kendall - second referendum
                      Cooper - repeatedly championed legislation to prevent no deal, otherwise Lexit
                      Burnham - second referendum
                      Corbyn - TBC
                      except if any of those had been leader of the labour Party it's unlikely May would have called an election and she would probably have been able to push through whatever form of Brexit she could get the ERG to accept.

                      Comment


                        #36
                        Lexit is a left-wing Brexit. If you want to respect the referendum, I don’t see how you are not actively wanting to leave the EU.

                        Comment


                          #37
                          Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                          I think TBC is fair.

                          I also think that "respecting the result of the referendum" "negotiated agreement for Norway plus" or "Single Market and Customs Union" which were seen as options in response to the referendum seem to have disappeared from the menu.

                          "Lexit" seems to have changed in meaning from "Actively wanting to leave the EU" to "being on the left and accepting that there was a referendum which voted to leave".
                          Given Corbyn himself has ruled out the Single Market, only favouring some form of associated relationship with same, that in itself takes Norway and SMCU off the menu.

                          Comment


                            #38
                            I’m not sure Corbyn has a robust understanding of these things, so may not realise those implications.

                            Comment


                              #39
                              Originally posted by Lucy Waterman View Post
                              Lexit is a left-wing Brexit. If you want to respect the referendum, I don’t see how you are not actively wanting to leave the EU.
                              So what are you if you don't want to respect the referendum ?

                              Comment


                                #40
                                there was indeed an EU directive in the early 1990s to privatise railways.
                                I would take issue with this.

                                What the First Railway Package did in 1991was to require that independent companies be allowed to apply for non-discriminatory track access to a member state's railway network and to require that infrastructure and train operations be controlled by separate entities (as a way of facilitating non-discrimination). It didn't require privatisation, though neoliberal governments like the UK took it as a licence to do so (even though privatisation had never been barred by EU law).

                                As AP notes, France never privatised SNCF and Macron just made what has become an almost bi-annual process never to do so. Nor does he see that stance at being at all in conflict with his belief in a more deeply integrated EU.

                                Comment


                                  #41
                                  At this point, a realist - in 2016 there would have be a point in respecting it, given the general expectation would have been an EEA relationship with the EU, but as the Tories have lurched ever more rapidly in the direction of no deal, Labour would be perfectly entitled to call for a second referendum that precisely delineates the political and economic position of the UK, and if the electorate then opted for WTO terms, then so be it.

                                  Comment


                                    #42
                                    Originally posted by Diable Rouge View Post
                                    At this point, a realist - in 2016 there would have be a point in respecting it, given the general expectation would have been an EEA relationship with the EU, but as the Tories have lurched ever more rapidly in the direction of no deal, Labour would be perfectly entitled to call for a second referendum that precisely delineates the political and economic position of the UK, and if the electorate then opted for WTO terms, then so be it.
                                    Labour might be "entitled" to do this- but 1) they dont have a majority in the house of commons to do this 2) "if the electorate then opted for WTO terms, then so be it?"

                                    So is leaving on WTO terms a disaster, or just another option?

                                    Comment


                                      #43
                                      Aye, he's pointlessly narrowed Labour's stance, either from triangulating to racists that prob won't Labour anyways, or a genuine idiot misunderstanding of State Aid and the SM. As he listens to Katy Clark, maybe the latter.

                                      Comment


                                        #44
                                        There is no such thing as WTO terms.

                                        Comment


                                          #45
                                          Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post

                                          Labour might be "entitled" to do this- but 1) they dont have a majority in the house of commons to do this 2) "if the electorate then opted for WTO terms, then so be it?"

                                          So is leaving on WTO terms a disaster, or just another option?
                                          It would be a disaster, but unfortunately, can't be left off the ballot paper as an option.

                                          Comment


                                            #46
                                            Could we have subtitles again?

                                            And When I use the phrase "WTO terms" please recognise the quotation marks around it

                                            Comment


                                              #47
                                              Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                                              Aye, he's pointlessly narrowed Labour's stance, either from triangulating to racists that prob won't Labour anyways, or a genuine idiot misunderstanding of State Aid and the SM. As he listens to Katy Clark, maybe the latter.
                                              You mean there was a majority vote to leave, and he has accepted that,

                                              Comment


                                                #48
                                                Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post

                                                Labour might be "entitled" to do this- but 1) they dont have a majority in the house of commons to do this...
                                                This seems like a weird line of reasoning. Should Labour not propose or suggest anything they don't have a commons majority for? Should they only suggest or create policy that has a current commons majority?

                                                Comment


                                                  #49
                                                  Do you want to stop Brexit, or do you just want Labour to put on a show?

                                                  Comment


                                                    #50
                                                    Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                                                    Could we have subtitles again?

                                                    And When I use the phrase "WTO terms" please recognise the quotation marks around it
                                                    The Brexit Party vote in the Europeans shows that 30% in the UK would be prepared to countenance a No Deal Brexit, so a future referendum would have to include it as an option, alongside Remain and the Withdrawal Agreement.

                                                    Comment

                                                    Working...
                                                    X