Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The battle for Spain

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Awesome Berbaslug!!!
    replied
    Originally posted by Diable Rouge View Post
    In fairness, the SNP purged that element fairly swiftly after their own flirtation with fascism during the Thirties, and the most virulently racial the Welsh became was the burning out of English holiday homes during the Seventies. That said, the current Catalan leader, Quim Torra, has provoked controversy over previous ethnographic scribblings concerning Castilian speakers, and Araña was certainly a blood and soil advocate in his foundation myth for Basque nationalism.
    Don't forget how we became essentially a post war refuge for a lot of leaders of a variety of independence movements that may have over enthusiastically embraced nazism, on the premise of the "enemy's enemy" principle. Would it be fair to describe Ruairi O'Bradaigh and republican sinn fein as catholic fascists? Sean South definitely was. And before anyone thinks that I'm accusing the Catalan independence movement of all being nazis, no I'm not. Just that it would be foolish to expect an independence movement to be free of some far right elements.
    Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 10-05-2019, 23:33.

    Leave a comment:


  • DCI Harry Batt
    replied
    Ok, well, it was an interesting thread for a while. I look forward to the next one.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diable Rouge
    replied
    Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
    Angry left wing populism and angry right wing populism are very frequently two sides of the same coin. History would suggest that people make the leap a lot quicker than you'd think, it just depends on the level of anger. I'm extremely pessimistic about how things are going to turn out.

    Also there's always a extreme right wing tinge in every independence movement. Something to do with the whole nationalism side of things.
    In fairness, the SNP purged that element fairly swiftly after their own flirtation with fascism during the Thirties, and the most virulently racial the Welsh became was the burning out of English holiday homes during the Seventies. That said, the current Catalan leader, Quim Torra, has provoked controversy over previous ethnographic scribblings concerning Castilian speakers, and Araña was certainly a blood and soil advocate in his foundation myth for Basque nationalism.
    Last edited by Diable Rouge; 10-05-2019, 21:58.

    Leave a comment:


  • DCI Harry Batt
    replied
    .
    Last edited by DCI Harry Batt; 10-05-2019, 21:54.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Awesome Berbaslug!!!
    replied
    Angry left wing populism and angry right wing populism are very frequently two sides of the same coin. History would suggest that people make the leap a lot quicker than you'd think, it just depends on the level of anger. I'm extremely pessimistic about how things are going to turn out.

    Also there's always a extreme right wing tinge in every independence movement. Something to do with the whole nationalism side of things.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lang Spoon
    replied
    <Applause>

    Leave a comment:


  • DCI Harry Batt
    replied
    They're probably scousers too.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Awesome Berbaslug!!!
    replied
    The Catalan independence movement does not have an extreme-right wing as far as I can tell.

    Oh it almost certainly has. Every independence movement does. It's just not that easy to detect because the language they use before independence is a bit different. It wasn't necessarily very obvious during the irish war of independence, that a lot of the people involved were going to wind up in a fascist militia, less than a decade and a half later.

    Leave a comment:


  • DCI Harry Batt
    replied
    I think the simpler explanation is that they are awful and ridiculous people.

    Leave a comment:


  • ursus arctos
    replied
    I believe that it actually is based on how voters in Catalunya voted in the recent elections, rather than their future intentions as regards party.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nocturnal Submission
    replied
    Maybe they're just mildly pro-Catalan independence but really like Vox's other policies.

    Leave a comment:


  • DCI Harry Batt
    replied
    (small-c conservative how?)

    Leave a comment:


  • DCI Harry Batt
    replied
    I read this as a Catalonia poll. Which would mean they are planning to support Catalonian independent, then move to Spain and vote Vox.

    Leave a comment:


  • ad hoc
    replied
    Perhaps 8% of Vox voters believe that without Catalunya (which in my experience is a fairly small c conservative place) they'd have more of a chance of grabbing at least a share of power in what was left of Spain. (I mean I know that shows an element of pragmatism not usually associated with fascists, but who knows)

    Leave a comment:


  • DCI Harry Batt
    replied
    The Catalan independence movement does not have an extreme-right wing as far as I can tell.

    Leave a comment:


  • DCI Harry Batt
    replied
    Vox are specifically and deliberately and loudly and importantly Spanish nationalist.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ginger Yellow
    replied
    I don't see why Catalonian nationalists can't also be fascists. They don't have to be Francoists.

    Leave a comment:


  • DCI Harry Batt
    replied
    Well, it's more like both, in different ways.

    Leave a comment:


  • ursus arctos
    replied
    It's more like 8 percent of Northern Leave voters supporting London Secession.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diable Rouge
    replied
    This is a bizarre stat - 8% of Vox supporters would vote for Catalan independence, which would be the equivalent of Brexit Party voters opting for Remain:

    http://twitter.com/electo_mania/status/1126801167500156928

    Leave a comment:


  • Felicity, I guess so
    replied
    There was a Guardian long read about 10 days ago by Meaghan Beatley about the virulent anti feminism in Vox and the PP rightward lurch, linking it to the ‘Wolfpack’ rape trial.
    Really interesting and very good on the feminist mobilisations EXCEPT astonishingly, she didn’t mention the women’s general strikes, presumably because social media is more important.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Awesome Berbaslug!!!
    replied
    You do know right that Labour insisted that all of those measures be put in the programme for government against the wishes of their more conservative partners, and forced through the citizens assembly, to give enda Kenny the cover he needed to avoid dealing directly with such issues. Maire Geoghan Quinn takes a lot of the credit for the decrimininalization of Homosexuality, though I would probably suspect it has more to do with the gay, and the bisexual labour ministers that were in that cabinet.

    Leave a comment:


  • Diable Rouge
    replied
    Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

    could this be because a major driver for the far right is the decline of male privilege, primarily to the benefit of women?
    This article is largely about US, rather than European politics, but it links the right with hypermasculinity, which makes sense in terms of promoting traditional values, promising strong leadership, and wishing to banish perceived societal threats such as immigration and Islam. On the other hand, the left have been to the fore in terms of female working rights, maternal leave, gender quotas in parliament and social reforms such as contraception, abortion and divorce (with the exception of Ireland, of course, though Labour were junior coalition partners for some of the above.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Diable Rouge
    replied
    Originally posted by TonTon View Post
    I saw something about the PP planning to object now.

    I'm in Catalonia at the moment, wandered past a local "Guanyem" thing...open-air meeting I guess. Preparation for the upcoming local elections. Interesting.
    Guanyem is yet another political alliance on the left - appears that this is the umbrella title for city elections , whereas En Comu Podem is reserved for regional and national elections (even though Barcelona en Comu is the name of the governing party there).

    Leave a comment:


  • The Awesome Berbaslug!!!
    replied
    Originally posted by Diable Rouge View Post
    A breakdown of votes by gender - as tends to be the case all over Europe, it's principally men who vote for the far-right (and indeed further to the left), with women favouring more moderate parties:

    http://twitter.com/electo_mania/status/1124571024627064833/photo/2
    could this be because a major driver for the far right is the decline of male privilege, primarily to the benefit of women?

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X