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    Originally posted by ad hoc View Post

    Point taken re:white supremacy. Islamophobia is the one I have to deal with and challenge and argue about on a day to day basis so I probably over focus on that in particular (though of all the various forms of racism / white supremacism you mention it's the most "acceptable" in mainstream discourse, not just here but everywhere and for that reason it's the one that troubles me - from my privileged position admittedly - the most)
    Not sure about that, you don't see videos of Muslims being harassed, having police called on them and killed in the west to the level of Black people.



    I still don't see how this makes the case for shouting his name from the rooftops though.
    This is what I said.

    The ideology should be exposed and debunked. All these killers should be publicly linked and their ideology exposed. It should be pointed out how this is another manifestation of bigotry that pervades globally.

    This can all easily be done without giving him hero status. If it is possible to do it for Naziism, Stalinism, Colonialism without making making Hitler or Stalin heroes, it should be possible here.


    I will clarify, It's the ideology and all that are linked to it that should be shouted from the rooftops. the focus should be on linking this guy and his ideology to the likes of the alt-right, murderous police officers, Media personalities etc. By not doing this allows them to continue to work in the shadows.

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      https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1108156721128718336

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        I think it's good alot of people seen it. For every knuckle dragging goon who applauded it, there are 1000 who were horrified at the magnitude of the event, hopefully a small minority of them will be driven to get up and make a change.
        Last edited by Tactical Genius; 20-03-2019, 00:08.

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          TG, I think you're way off here. With good motivation, sure, but well wide of the mark.

          Nothing good comes out of that video. A whole heap of good is coming from people's responses here in NZ (and I would hope, elsewhere too). All the people visiting mosques, hugging strangers, advocating law changes or even in some cases apologising for previous comments - none of them need to have seen the terrorist's shit, and I expect the vast majority have not.

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            Originally posted by tee rex View Post
            TG, I think you're way off here. With good motivation, sure, but well wide of the mark.

            Nothing good comes out of that video. A whole heap of good is coming from people's responses here in NZ (and I would hope, elsewhere too). All the people visiting mosques, hugging strangers, advocating law changes or even in some cases apologising for previous comments - none of them need to have seen the terrorist's shit, and I expect the vast majority have not.
            Following your reasoning Tee Rex, there is no point people vising Auchwitz and Belsen, seeing the piles of human bones and Skulls and videos of half dead men women and children to bring the full horror of the holocaust to people.

            There is a reason why we constantly see video re-runs of the planes flying into the twin towers. What you say sounds good, but all I see is a temporary hiatus from the anti-Muslim bashing (which will no doubt resume in due course).

            Is the New Zealand law enforcement authorities kicking off the door of the many white supremecists that reside in your country. I am sure there are many as many White South Africans emigrated there after Apartheid?
            When you say Law changes, which ones specifically, are there any that will take White terrorism as seriously as say Islamic terrorism?
            I don't see any lasting societal changes in the US after Dylan Roof or Norway after Brevik and I don't want the same to happen here.

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              To use another analogy, it was the video of the naked child running down the road with her skin on fire that led the US public to question the use of Napalm and the Vietnam war in general ditto the disfigured face of Emmit Til that kicked off the Civil Rights movement and turned many Urban Whites away from silently condoning lynching in small town USA.

              I could be wrong however, but time will tell and I give it 3 months before things return to normal.

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                I think there's a pretty clear distinction between coverage OF atrocities and BY the perpetrators. One is journalism (and later history), the other is sick propaganda.

                You ask about NZ law enforcement: well, people have already been charged, including for the very thing you seem to be advocating ... distributing the terrorist video. Which is illegal here, under existing law.

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                  On a very basic human level, someone unwittingly stumbling on the video in the immediate aftermath could be seriously and lastingly traumatised, with no straightforward access to any form of therapy/counseling. I am personally very susceptible and narrowly avoided accidentally seeing an IS be heading when they were publicising them heavily.

                  None of that should have been circulated either.

                  Mrs. S works for a wonderful crisis support helpline who always experience a spike in calls after occurrences like this. Those who have seen footage and can't "unsee" are prevalent.

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                    Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post

                    I profoundly disagree with how she has handled this, he should be named, his political views should be made public and the dominant society need to tackle not only the terrorists in their midst, but also the kind of ideology behind it.
                    By ignoring these people and pretending it is just an isolated individual, only guarantees this will happen again.
                    He has been named, of course. You are complaining about the PM's personal decision to use his name. It's a bit silly to suggest that equates to ignoring the neo-Nazis and far right potential imitators. We can deal with them and their ideology those things without giving him the seedy prestige of using his name. Sad little sacks fantasise about their name being uttered in hushed tones. This has become the thinking after the Parkland school shooting.

                    https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...me-dave-cullen

                    Also, I don't think anyone serious here is saying it is just an isolated individual or that far right nationalism isn't a problem. Except perhaps the fuckwits on the whaleoil blog and their ilk, but they aren't serious, just creepy little freaks. There may, or may not, be genuine political will to address the problem; but Ardern's choice not to use his name isn't symptomatic of that.
                    Last edited by Lurgee; 20-03-2019, 02:40.

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                      Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
                      To use another analogy, it was the video of the naked child running down the road with her skin on fire that led the US public to question the use of Napalm and the Vietnam war in general ditto the disfigured face of Emmit Til that kicked off the Civil Rights movement and turned many Urban Whites away from silently condoning lynching in small town USA.

                      I could be wrong however, but time will tell and I give it 3 months before things return to normal.
                      I tend to agree with the latter sentiment but I don't follow your logic about the other stuff. Of course these bastards should be investigated. But I don't see why that means Jacinda Ardern has to say his name. Doesn't follow.

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                        Of course when the BBC reported Jacinda Ardern's stance they immediately named him. I can see both sides to this argument but come down on the side of mentioning his crimes and not his name, take away something from him that he almost certainly wants.

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                          Erdoğan has decided to use the attacks in NZ as part of his populist rhetoric in the upcoming election by apparently showing excerpts from the live stream in his election rallies and referencing Gallipoli. The NZ terrorist had visited Turkey twice and nobody is sure why as yet.

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                            Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post

                            Not sure about that, you don't see videos of Muslims being harassed, having police called on them and killed in the west to the level of Black people.
                            You have been watching a subset of videos then. Those things are all over. Indeed we are talking right at this minute about a video showing a man murder 50 Muslims. My point about mainstream discourse is about the way that it is entirely acceptable to splash anti Muslim hate speech over the front of any number of newspapers. Obviously this happens with racism towards black people too, but they have to be more subtle, more covert. But anyway, your point remains that there is no substantive difference between these multiple forms of racism and white supremacism, and I think you're right.




                            This is what I said.

                            The ideology should be exposed and debunked. All these killers should be publicly linked and their ideology exposed. It should be pointed out how this is another manifestation of bigotry that pervades globally.

                            This can all easily be done without giving him hero status. If it is possible to do it for Naziism, Stalinism, Colonialism without making making Hitler or Stalin heroes, it should be possible here.


                            I will clarify, It's the ideology and all that are linked to it that should be shouted from the rooftops. the focus should be on linking this guy and his ideology to the likes of the alt-right, murderous police officers, Media personalities etc. By not doing this allows them to continue to work in the shadows.
                            I agree with you that we should highlight the ideology and show how it is all connected. We're just going to have to disagree with the idea that we publicise this guy's name. I cannot see for a moment how it helps anyone, aside from him.

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                              With her unfailing instinct for the job, Suzanne Moore unwittingly announces we have reached Peak Ardern:

                              Now, in the most horrific of circumstances, we have seen the steel. We have seen the qualities that define leadership in such a way that it is clear she is a lioness and that to call so many of our current leaders donkeys is a disservice to hardworking donkeys the world over.

                              <snip>


                              Māori doing their immensely powerful hakas, Ardern’s face full of sorrow but also fearlessness, ordinary citizens with aftershocks of expression of love and bravery – this will stay with me. Martin Luther King said genuine leaders did not search for consensus but moulded it.

                              https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-and-integrity

                              Boak.

                              She's not the mother of the nation, holding us together through her iron force of will. She's a moderately likeable politicians who has managed to give a few good speeches in response to a crisis.

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                                Of course no politician should be elevated to sainthood, that only leads to disillusion when s/he shows fallibility later.

                                But you're wrong about "a few good speeches". Reagan or Clinton or Obama could deliver those, as long as Peggy Noonan or whoever is on staff. The test is when you see Ardern - or any leader - speaking without the script. In numerous media conferences she has taken heaps of questions, not been "managed", and has answered with the clarity of conviction. So often you can see a politician's poll-driven wheels spinning behind the eyes, and you know they're trying to remember the lines. She doesn't need to remember because she is clear in her own mind. Hence the effortless put-downs of Trump, Zuckerberg, etc.

                                The other point I'd make is that she has been compared to Trump on gun control, but if anything the gap is even wider. She said immediately "the gun laws will change", when the constitutionally correct response would have been "I lead one party, we have a coalition, no promises because no majority, I'll see what we can do". Instead she simply got out in front, used her political capital, effectively daring other parties in Parliament to challenge her on this. (Whereas Trump had a majority in House and Senate for two years).

                                Her political instincts are not cuddly-saintly-nice, they're damn sharp.

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                                  Spot on.

                                  https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...hief-neil-basu

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                                    Good on him.

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                                      Originally posted by tee rex View Post
                                      Of course no politician should be elevated to sainthood, that only leads to disillusion when s/he shows fallibility later.

                                      But you're wrong about "a few good speeches". Reagan or Clinton or Obama could deliver those, as long as Peggy Noonan or whoever is on staff. The test is when you see Ardern - or any leader - speaking without the script. In numerous media conferences she has taken heaps of questions, not been "managed", and has answered with the clarity of conviction. So often you can see a politician's poll-driven wheels spinning behind the eyes, and you know they're trying to remember the lines. She doesn't need to remember because she is clear in her own mind. Hence the effortless put-downs of Trump, Zuckerberg, etc.

                                      The other point I'd make is that she has been compared to Trump on gun control, but if anything the gap is even wider. She said immediately "the gun laws will change", when the constitutionally correct response would have been "I lead one party, we have a coalition, no promises because no majority, I'll see what we can do". Instead she simply got out in front, used her political capital, effectively daring other parties in Parliament to challenge her on this. (Whereas Trump had a majority in House and Senate for two years).

                                      Her political instincts are not cuddly-saintly-nice, they're damn sharp.
                                      I'm quite happy to acknowledge I "over-spoke" regarding Ardern as my ire was really aimed at the meeja and their hyperbolic commentary about her. She's a slightly-less-worse-than-average politician. No need for people to get carried away, just because she isn't Donald Trump.

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                                        This has got me blubbing ...

                                        https://twitter.com/AngelaCuming/sta...95269120090113

                                        Students in Dunedin, silent walk. Very moving.

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                                          Canterbury Crusaders consulting with the Muslim community over a name change.

                                          https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...tchurch-attack

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                                            I ended up reading replies from US gun types to a post by a guy running something called Kiwi Farms which seems to be a repository of fuckawful gun nuts and nazis, telling the NZ police to fuck off about a request for help (tbf, the scope of the request was rather overambitious). It brought home the message that there is probably a lot of people out there who enjoyed every second of that video....

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                                              https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/1109385390492975104

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                                                Powerful stuff. I disagree all this bigotry comes from politicians. Sure they fan the flames, but they are only reflecting the ignorant views of the population. Islamaphobia is only popular in UK politics and media because a majority of the population either agree or don't care enough about the issue to punish them.

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                                                  I don't think they're "only" reflecting general ignorance. The point is that they find the ignorance worth exploiting for their own gain. They make life worse by convincing voters of "threats" that they wouldn't otherwise be conscious of.

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                                                    Originally posted by Bruno View Post
                                                    I don't think they're "only" reflecting general ignorance. The point is that they find the ignorance worth exploiting for their own gain. They make life worse by convincing voters of "threats" that they wouldn't otherwise be conscious of.
                                                    Sorry, i misused the word ignorance there, I meant prejudice. If you have bad feelings to a certain section of society, you are more likely to unquestionably believe anything negative about them unquestionably even in the absence of evidence.
                                                    We see many examples of this with the anti-Muslim agenda.

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