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Ethiopian Airlines plane crash

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    I'm flying for the first time in two years tomorrow, probably shouldn't be reading this thread.

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      It seems like the Former Boeing Executive that they are trying to appoint as Secretary of Defence Is under investigation by the Department of Defence, for being a Boeing Stooge.

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        The grifting goes all the way down

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          Also Patrick M Shanahan goes on the increasingly long list of Irish Americans in the Trump administration.

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            Safety features that could have possibly helped the pilots in the Ethiopian and Indonesian crashes weren't on those two planes, because Boeing charges additional costs to activate those even though they're already in the plane.

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              Is this get your bad news week out at Boeing? First this horrendous crash, which turns into a Safety/regulatory capture/potential coporate manslaughter nightmare. Then the Trump White house wipes out over 3/4s of the potential launches for the Boeing made SLS rocket, and sets about destroying its entire rationale for being. Then the Acting secretary of Defence Gets himself investigated by the Office of the Inspector General for basically being a Boeing Stooge so outrageously overt, that the other parts of the Military industrial complex have complained. , and now Boeing have announced that the first test of their new capsule to launch people to the ISS has been postponed for 4 months, pushing it back to August.

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                Originally posted by Incandenza View Post
                Safety features that could have possibly helped the pilots in the Ethiopian and Indonesian crashes weren't on those two planes, because Boeing charges additional costs to activate those even though they're already in the plane.
                Yet, if that were the case then the fix -- at least for a faulty AOA sensor -- should already be in existence, whereas Boeing are hoping to release new SW at the beginning of next week. Something doesn't add up here. What is now clear is that all 737 MAXs have two AOA sensors fitted as standard kit, one each side of the fuselage. Good. These two sensors produce a single input to MCAS and an optional extra error signal to the pilots. This is such an obviously crap arrangement that it's difficult to believe that a professional engineering company like Boeing would ever let it see light of day even if it weren't so safety critical. The fix will give MCAS input from both the AOA sensors, which hopefully will put this particular episode to bed.

                That's far from the end, however, because unless I've missed something a faulty AOA sensor hasn't been implicated in the second tragedy in Ethiopia. This may mean a different failure mode for MCAS which, in turn, leads me to wonder how well Boeing themselves understand precisely how MCAS interacts with the other systems around it. I'll be avoiding 737 MAXs for at least the foreseeable future.

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                  Originally posted by Muukalainen View Post
                  What is now clear is that all 737 MAXs have two AOA sensors fitted as standard kit, one each side of the fuselage. Good. These two sensors produce a single input to MCAS and an optional extra error signal to the pilots. This is such an obviously crap arrangement that it's difficult to believe that a professional engineering company like Boeing would ever let it see light of day even if it weren't so safety critical. The fix will give MCAS input from both the AOA sensors, which hopefully will put this particular episode to bed.
                  I'm not sure that's 100% correct. My understanding is that the two sensors send two independent signals to MCAS. If either signal reads 'bad', MCAS accepts it and kicks in. But if there's a discrepancy between the two signals, it sends an error signal / light to the pilots so that they can make the decision to override MCAS. That's the optional bit.

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                    But will the MCAS still continue running on bad sensor data unless the pilots disconnect the MCAS??

                    On Airbus, when bad sensor data is detected, automation switched off by the plane's computer and control is handed over to the pilots. That's what happened on the Air France flight over the Atlantic. The plane handed control over to the pilots. Unfortunately the pilots were incompetent.

                    Boeing always prided themselves in building responsive planes that put the pilots first, but now it seems that they've gone even further than Airbus would ever dare to go in terms of trusting automation and sensors. The starting point for automation should be increasing safety and reducing pilot fatigue. That is the starting point for Airbus automation. There's an argument to be made that Airbus went too far down that route, but their starting point was sound. However, Boeing's starting point for the MCAS on the MAX seems to have been: How can we use automation to help keep this overstretched, outdated airframe in the sky? That's a fundamentally misguided starting point for pursuing automation.

                    If I were to hazard a guess I would say that engineers at Boeing (who are world class) got overruled by the corporate division. Designing a new 737 type plane from scratch was going to require retraining of thousands of pilots. It's a shame, because Boeing was traditionally one of those companies where the people in charge of corporate decisions had a lot of engineering experience. Perhaps that is not the case anymore? I'm reading that they moved their corporate HQ from Seattle (where the plane factories are) to Chicago. Wonder why they did that...

                    Latest news is that Garuda Indonesia has cancelled their entire MAX order.
                    Last edited by anton pulisov; 22-03-2019, 11:06.

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                      Maybe the hush, hush on the 737MAX deal had something to do with this?
                      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-s-hanoi-visit

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                        Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post
                        But will the MCAS still continue running on bad sensor data unless the pilots disconnect the MCAS??
                        Yes. And unless they bought the AOA indicator light option, they'd be left guessing as to the source of the climbing and diving. The light would tell them right away.

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                          Unbelievable. Even my car disengages the ABS system when it detects a faulty ABS sensor.

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                            They've tested the Lion Air crash situation in a simulator. Assuming the MCAS initiates a dive, and assuming the pilots have the correct warning message about faulty sensors, the pilots only have 40 seconds to disconnect MCAS before it is too late to recover.

                            And it appears, in that article, that the Lion Air pilots had a fair idea of what was going on, but the plane was too stubborn.
                            Last edited by anton pulisov; 26-03-2019, 10:50.

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                              [URL]https://twitter.com/fox35news/status/1110635135970541568?s=21[/URL]

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                                Ethiopia has presented, though not published, its preliminary report. Says there was no pilot error, and the the planes should be grounded until the flight control systems have been reviewed.


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                                  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47812225

                                  "The Ethiopian Airlines plane that crashed last month nosedived several times before it hit the ground, a preliminary report has said.

                                  Pilots "repeatedly" followed procedures recommended by Boeing before the crash, according to the first official report into the disaster.

                                  Despite their efforts, pilots "were not able to control the aircraft", Transport Minister Dagmawit Moges said."


                                  Fucking, fucking hell.

                                  This may go beyond lawsuits - Ethiopia has an extradition treaty with the US.

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                                    Unfortunately, a few deeply discounted Boeing aircraft thrown into the mix could make extradition threats disappear.

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                                      It would be interesting to learn what Ethiopian law's position on corporate responsibility for crime is.

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                                        Article: US pilot was taken off flight and had pay deducted when he refused to fly MAX without simulator training

                                        Great interview here with Ralph Nader, whose grandniece was on the flight. The family is taking Boeing and the FAA to court. That clip also has a recording of a conference call where the CEO of Boeing is praising the Trump administration for speeding up the certification process for the MAX. Actual corporate fascism.

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                                          [URL]https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1119669157048586247?s=21[/URL]

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                                            Idiots. Corporate morons thought they could replicate a cheaper Everett somewhere else by hiring non-union workers. Everett = Boeing. Why would you try to undermine your company's best asset?
                                            Last edited by anton pulisov; 20-04-2019, 19:34.

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                                              To save money and thereby please executives and investors. And to provide a photo op for 45, thereby helping your defence business.

                                              Unfortunate typo before "non-union workers", btw

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                                                Indeed, "hiring" was autocorrected to "firing". Sign of the times.

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                                                  https://twitter.com/meganmurp/status/1122580530531377153

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