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Ethiopian Airlines plane crash

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    #76
    Someone is going to get their bollocks sued off.

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      #77
      Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
      Distressing piece on the FAA process.
      Boeing and the FAA this week declined to answer questions from The Post about its involvement in reviewing the anti-stall system, including when Boeing first notified the agency that the MCAS system would be on the plane.

      “The 737 Max was certified in accordance with the identical FAA requirements and processes that have governed certification of all previous new airplanes and derivatives,” Boeing Communications Director Chaz Bickers said in an email. “Detailed questions should be directed to the FAA.”

      The agency said in a statement: “The FAA’s aircraft certification processes are well established and have consistently produced safe aircraft designs. The 737-MAX certification program followed the FAA’s standard certification process.”
      The FAA and Boeing really aren't learning very quickly, are they. When did Boeing first inform the FAA that MCAS would be in the plane is a simple and entirely relevant question, and one that both parties refused to answer.

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        #78
        That article is astonishing and shocking. How the hell are Boeing allowed to certify their own planes in the name of the FAA? I mean, seriously. This is laughable. What is the point of the FAA at all at that point. If the theory holds that "If Boeing says it's safe then it must be safe", then there's no need for any regulation to exist. The market, apparently, will look after itself.

        That is nuts.

        Boeing are going to get sued to shreds (and need bailing out from the US defence establishment - I'm expecting taxes to go up to cover all kinds of new purchases of shiny and overpriced Boeing products for the military, the profit from which will be used to cover the massive hole made by the litigation).

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          #79
          Hmm, does anyone know how widespread these self-certification arrangements are? Do the same kind of procedures exist between say Airbus and the European authorities, or is it just the FAA that operates this way?

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            #80
            Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
            That article is astonishing and shocking. How the hell are Boeing allowed to certify their own planes in the name of the FAA? I mean, seriously. This is laughable. What is the point of the FAA at all at that point. If the theory holds that "If Boeing says it's safe then it must be safe", then there's no need for any regulation to exist. The market, apparently, will look after itself.

            That is nuts.

            Boeing are going to get sued to shreds (and need bailing out from the US defence establishment - I'm expecting taxes to go up to cover all kinds of new purchases of shiny and overpriced Boeing products for the military, the profit from which will be used to cover the massive hole made by the litigation).
            I don't know. If you look over at the Astronomy thread, The Trump administration has given them a massive kick in the space bollocks, and taken an axe to the "Shuttle coalition" which is worth at least a billion quid a year to boeing. Anyway, Republicans borrow for the military.

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              #81
              This is astonishing

              brilliant reporting from the Seattle Times - who look like they were already working on the story before the Ethiopian Airways crash .

              boeing were behind Airbus in the race to market and were putting the FAA under a lot of pressure.

              they gave them one set of data whilst implementing something completely different, and persuaded them to let Boeing have sign off. They didn’t train people on the new system because it would have made the new plane more expensive.

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                #82
                [URL]https://twitter.com/brianmfloyd/status/1108186595218198528?s=21[/URL]

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                  #83
                  Wow, this is reminiscent of the De Haviland Comet.

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                    #84
                    Apparently the last software update was designed to prevent a high speed stall.

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                      #85
                      Always worth reading PPRUNE for technical discussions at times like this

                      Rumours & News - Ethiopian airliner down in Africa - Originally Posted by Airbubba A Bloomberg article credits a jumpseat rider with saving the

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                        #86
                        I don't know. If you look over at the Astronomy thread, The Trump administration has given them a massive kick in the space bollocks, and taken an axe to the "Shuttle coalition" which is worth at least a billion quid a year to boeing. Anyway, Republicans borrow for the military.

                        All of that makes sense assuming Boeing are in no sort of danger of going out of business. But if they continue to act with the toxic mix of negligence, secrecy and arrogance they've been displaying up to now then they'll be in serious risk of folding as the banks and insurance firms pull the rug.

                        That would leave Airbus (Euro) and Embraer (Brazilian) as the only two large aircraft manufacturers left, and US pride wouldn't stand for that.

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                          #87
                          Oh there's no danger of Boeing going out of business. They're more than 1% of the US economy, a substantial part of its exports and they employ a massive number of people. There's also no way that the World's airlines are going to give Airbus an effective monopoly, for a whole variety of reasons, but ultimately because they like two giant airplane manufacturers going at each others throats. A considerably more likely scenario is that someone like Michael O'Leary has rung boeing up about the 134 of these aircraft that they've ordered, and he's been making it very clear that he's undecided about completing this order, and might require a fucking massive discount to continue flying boeing. That in itself is survivable, but costly.

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                            #88
                            They're also going to have the living shit sued out of them, by the victims' families presumably and definitely by shareholders.

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                              #89
                              The purchase contacts generally give the airline an automatic out if the model in question is grounded in the relevant jurisdiction.

                              The big question here is how long it is going to take for Boeing to fix the problem (and convince non-US regulators that they have). I am increasingly sure that they really don't know.

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                                #90
                                That would leave Airbus (Euro) and Embraer (Brazilian) as the only two large aircraft manufacturers left, and US pride wouldn't stand for that.
                                You ever flown in an Embraer? It's like going back in time to the 1970s.

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                                  #91
                                  Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                  The purchase contacts generally give the airline an automatic out if the model in question is grounded in the relevant jurisdiction.

                                  The big question here is how long it is going to take for Boeing to fix the problem (and convince non-US regulators that they have). I am increasingly sure that they really don't know.
                                  O'Leary has probably asked Boeing for half his money back in cash at this point, which will have surprised even boeing, considering that he hasn't paid them for anything yet. I suppose ultimately most airlines simply can't walk away from Boeing, on the grounds that their planes aren't safe, when half the world's existing stock of airliners are Boeing.

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                                    #92
                                    I don't think that has happened, but obviously you know better.

                                    hobbes, Embraer aircraft are quite common on regional routes in the US, and that hasn't been my experience at all. Though it is true that I flew Ilyushins in the 70s (among many other kind of aircraft).

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                                      #93
                                      They might not walk away from Boeing but I reckon the majority will walk away from the MAX

                                      (And I suspect passengers will start checking and refusing to fly on a MAX anyway)

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                                        #94
                                        GY, there are significant (though perhaps not insurmountable) jurisdictional issues with bringing claims by victims' families in US courts (where the exposure would be greatest). Class actions are going to be particularly hard to sustain on the basis of what is currently known.
                                        That obviously doesn't apply to shareholder derivative suits, which I would expect to be filed this week (if they haven't been already).

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                                          #95
                                          Embraer are used for UK internal flights to by Flybe. They beat the old turbo prop planes that's the workhouse of their fleet, that's for sure.

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                                            #96
                                            Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                                            They might not walk away from Boeing but I reckon the majority will walk away from the MAX

                                            (And I suspect passengers will start checking and refusing to fly on a MAX anyway)
                                            They'll solve the technical issue and, for the benefit of nervous passengers, the name of the plane will quietly change in a few months.

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                                              #97
                                              Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                              GY, there are significant (though perhaps not insurmountable) jurisdictional issues with bringing claims by victims' families in US courts (where the exposure would be greatest). Class actions are going to be particularly hard to sustain on the basis of what is currently known.
                                              That obviously doesn't apply to shareholder derivative suits, which I would expect to be filed this week (if they haven't been already).
                                              I assume that at least some of the victims of this and the Lion Air crash either were US citizens or had US dependants

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                                                #98
                                                There were 8 US citizens on the Ethiopian flight; there were none on the Lion Air flight (and don't appear to have been any non-US citizens with US dependents).

                                                That's why I'm skeptical about class certification.

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                                                  #99
                                                  I'm not even thinking about class certification, though I suppose that could come in if someone tries to pursue a reckless endangerment kind of argument for all the flights that fortunately didn't crash.

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                                                    I don't think that has happened, but obviously you know better

                                                    Heh, obviously a slight exaggeration, but this is the sort of shit he lives for, and that a lot of his reputation is built on He's a major customer for this plane, and right now, he has enormous negotiating power over them.

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