ISIS brides

[beak]

It's almost as if we don't regard smuggling as serious as mass murder and child rape.

both of these being things that begum has been tried and found guilty of?

[Jah Womble]

Which comment is this?

"Where do you draw the line in the values and political beliefs parents install in their children[?]"

My argument being 'some way before you arrive at extremism'. But I think this is a moot point.

[Tactical Genius]

both of these being things that begum has been tried and found guilty of?

Yeah, but she's a funny tinge so must be guilty innit.

[Tactical Genius]

"Where do you draw the line in the values and political beliefs parents install in their children[?]"

My argument being 'some way before you arrive at extremism'. But I think this is a moot point.

And who makes this determination, social workers or the likes of Sajid Javed? I really don't get what you have an issue with.

[Antepli Ejderha]

both of these being things that begum has been tried and found guilty of?

Also smuggling in huge quantities of cocaine or heroin hurts nobody. It does.

[E10 Rifle]

It's racist in multiple ways too – not just obviously towards her and her blameless kid, but also towards the entire populations of Bangladesh, Syria and beyond, who are deemed fair game to dump "security threats" on without a care in the world. Despicable scum the Tories are.

[Tactical Genius]

It's racist in multiple ways too – not just obviously towards her and her blameless kid, but also towards the entire populations of Bangladesh, Syria and beyond, who are deemed fair game to dump "security threats" on without a care in the world. Despicable scum the Tories are.

Tories do what they do E10. Opprobrium should be to the sympathisers on the so-called left.

They type who when you talk about mercy or sympathy for her and her child doubt your sincerity or call you "self-righteous"
They are the ones who should hang their heads in shame.

If she or her child dies in that camp, we would all be best advised to avoid public places for a fair while.

[Jah Womble]

And who makes this determination, social workers or the likes of Sajid Javed? I really don't get what you have an issue with.

You were asking 'where do you draw the line?', ie, a general point. Which I answered.

You appeared to be suggesting at a natural evolution from 'holding strong opinions' to 'espousing extremism' - which I think to be a huge (and rather unnatural) leap. If I misinterpreted that, then apologies.

[Tactical Genius]

You were asking 'where do you draw the line?', ie, a general point. Which I answered.

You appeared to be suggesting at a natural evolution from 'holding strong opinions' to 'espousing extremism' - which I think to be a huge (and rather unnatural) leap. If I misinterpreted that, then apologies.

No, I am not suggesting anything, please do not put words into my mouth. If you want me to clarify, just ask me a straight question and I will do my best to answer.

Also, how can you suggest something when you ask a question?

Thank you..

[Moonlight Shadow]

If you still have doubts SD is an unprincipled knobhead pandering to people who will eventually turn to him and tell him "You're next..."

https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/...39734176686080

[Jah Womble]

No, I am not suggesting anything, please do not put words into my mouth. If you want me to clarify, just ask me a straight question and I will do my best to answer.

Also, how can you suggest something when you ask a question?

Thank you..

Like I said previously, if I misinterpreted what you were saying, then apologies. But that's how it read.

(NB I think it's pretty easy to suggest at something when asking a question. People do it all the time.)

[Patrick Thistle]

Tories do what they do E10. Opprobrium should be to the sympathisers on the so-called left.

They type who when you talk about mercy or sympathy for her and her child doubt your sincerity or call you "self-righteous"
They are the ones who should hang their heads in shame.

If she or her child dies in that camp, we would all be best advised to avoid public places for a fair while.

That criticism stung you, huh. Fwiw I don't doubt your sincerity. It just seems to push you into weird territory of bristling superiority.

I didn't get the Kinder chocolate reference. That's not a 'white on the inside' reference, is it?

[Tactical Genius]

That criticism stung you, huh. Fwiw I don't doubt your sincerity. It just seems to push you into weird territory of bristling superiority.

I didn't get the Kinder chocolate reference. That's not a 'white on the inside' reference, is it?

Hahaha, I actually took it as a compliment.

[ooh aah]

both of these being things that begum has been tried and found guilty of?

No, I should really have added aiding and abetting there really. Anyway my point was simply to respond to TG's assertion that the colour of her skin is the primary factor in the decision, and his use of white kids smuggling drugs in Thailand as a contrast. But this is not a particularly good comparison in a number of ways. The British Government doesn't attempt to smuggle those kids across an international border to escape local justice. What it does is to request that death sentences are commuted to a prison sentence. It does this as a matter of course for all British citizens given a death sentence. As an example, in my first month teaching in China I was asked by my students why Britain was interfering in China's affairs. I didn't know what the hell they were taking about, but it turned out a British citizen had been given the death penalty for smuggling Heroin into China. The UK gov requested that the sentence be commuted to a prison term. The man in question was a British citizen born in Pakistan. But apparently it's only white kids in Thailand this happens to. If the UK government was treating Begum in the same way as the kids in Thailand, we'd be doing nothing until a Syrian court had passed a death sentence on her.

I think the colour of her skin is a contributing factor, but I don't think it's the number one factor (at least not for everybody. Obviously for some it is). She went to join ISIS, a group which had carried out mass murder, and had auctioned off Yazidi girls as young as eight even before Begum went to join them. I really don't think anybody has been paying attention to the attitudes of the British public if you think a white person is going to get a free pass on supporting paedophilia and terrorism (especially when that terrorist group is clearly identified as being against us). We're talking about a country where an angry mob attacked a paediatrician. One of the last episodes of QT I bothered to watch saw a large round of applause following the suggestion that Jeremy Corbyn was a traitor who should be in prison. Neither the IRA nor Jeremy have a 'funny tinge', so why the applause?

Legally she should be allowed back, so that should be the end of it. But it is clearly an emotive issue, and not just because of her ethnicity.

[SouthdownRebel]

No, I should really have added aiding and abetting there really.

Legally she should be allowed back, so that should be the end of it. But it is clearly an emotive issue, and not just because of her ethnicity.

It's a question of whether Begum should be viewed as an accessory or as a victim herself. Clearly, the man on the street has decided on this, and our Home Secretary has chosen to agree. The problem is, until she can be properly interviewed and assessed, nobody can know this for certain. We do not know if she was groomed directly, or if she self-radicalised, for want of a better term. What influenced her to leave?

Personally I find it strange that people are so ready to assume that at 15 years old she was capable of clear-headed decision making and that she therefore must have gone to Syria with a complete understanding of what she was doing.

You invoke the idea of paedophilia and project it onto a 15 year old as though she weren't a vulnerable child herself when she left. In your comparison, how many of the "white kids in Thailand" are 15 years old? To use another comparison - 15 year olds are not unknown to fall in love with their teachers and run away with them, to a country like France that has a lower age of consent. In those cases, how often does the public decide that the student has made their choice and demand that they should be made to live out their entire adult lives in another country with the teacher that groomed them?

So, ask yourself - why is it you see her as an accomplice and not a victim? Is it because you think of her as a responsible 19 year old woman, rather than the 15 year old she was when she left? Or is it something else?

That is the question that people need to consider but, in this respect, it doesn't (or shouldn't) matter what the average Sun or Mail reader thinks. Putting aside the legalities for a moment, Sajid Javid had an opportunity to further everyone's understanding of what drove her, at the age of 15, to leave home and family and travel to a warzone to join an organisation that would almost certainly treat her abusively. Was she influenced by people in her community? By content on the internet? By our media's xenophobic demonisation of immigrant, or 2nd and 3rd generation, communities? He was given an opportunity to help the entire country learn and reflect and show some compassion, and instead he chose to prioritise a few cheap brownie points with the media and the braying masses. In doing so, he nurtures the very environment that radicalises people in the first place. The man should be utterly ashamed of himself, and recognise that his actions reflect a major part of the problem.

[ooh aah]

Well I guess I see her as both a victim and an accomplice really, based on what we know so far. I have sympathy with the 15 year old version of her, but not so much with the current adult version. At what point should we expect the adult to take responsibility for their continued bad actions, rather than hide behind the fact they made a bad decision as a child? She's had four years to reflect on that, surrounded by some pretty compelling evidence, and still hasn't. That's what I find so problematic really. That doesn't mean I think she should be left to rot etc, I think she should be allowed to return, but I'm not going to automatically assume that everyone who thinks she should, does so specifically because she isn't white.

[Jah Womble]

How much control over what happened do you imagine she had during those four years?

[ooh aah]

Well she had control over her own thought processes surely? Enough to know something was clearly wrong. There have been others in her position who were able to reach that conclusion in a lot less time, and who were a similar age.

[Jah Womble]

I'd find it almost impossible to second-guess that myself.

[ooh aah]

Why? Unless she was mentally deficient in some way, why would she be unable to think?

[EIM]

She went to join ISIS

No she didn't.

[Jah Womble]

Why? Unless she was mentally deficient in some way, why would she be unable to think?

Where did I say that she was 'unable to think'? My point is that attempting to speculate about how any individual might function in such an environment seems a bit futile, to be honest.

[E10 Rifle]

And the bottom line is, she's our responsibility, a British citizen, a product of British society. Wherever you stand on law and order and foreign policy matters – whether you'd back an authoritarian or rehabilitative approach – it's our responsibility to deal with, not Bangladesh's or Syria's.

[Nefertiti2]

The Telegraph- who knew that writing bad have it all mummy novels menat you were a fascist.

https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1098888907981234176

[Antepli Ejderha]

FFS.

So has the family of Jack Letts received a letter stripping him of his British citizenship? He's a dual national as his dad is Canadian. In addition his parents are charged with helping a terrorist organisation, iirc, as they've sent him money. He was also over 18, therefore an adult, when he went to fight for Daesh .

Simply a much clearer case than Begum but as he's not a funny tinge I doubt there's a letter.