ISIS brides

[gt3]

What VT said.

She could possibly be prosecuted inter alia under the Treason Act 1351 - for at least seeming to have "adhered to the King's enemies in his Realm, giving them aid and comfort in his Realm or elsewhere",

Sajid Javed is clearly playing to the gallery. I'd say he should be ashamed of himself but our politicians have shown themselves to be way beyond any such emotions. Another politician shooting from the hip so to speak without checking the law first. Has Begum been stripped of her citizenship? If not, then I can't see how she can be denied entry back into the UK. She could be detained once she's back in the country but what grounds does The Saj (tm) think he has to deny her entry if she still has her citizenship/passport.

Should she be prosecuted - like the female character in The Bodyguard - having turned out to be a willing warrior rather than a young lady radicalised despite herself? (Apologies if that's a spoiler for anyone who hasn't seen The Bodyguard).

One wonders if she was groomed/radicalised as a schoolgirl at home, with that continuing once she was with ISIS. Two pregnancies resulting in dead babies whilst in a war zone and (one imagines) ongoing radicalisation on a daily basis would doubtless have left her mind fairly scrambled to say the least. A bin full of decapitated heads may not have fazed her given the possible depths of her radicalisation (I hesitate to use the word brainwashing). So her comments about that should perhaps not be taken at face value.

If she has been deeply radicalised, she would probably have a good defence to any prosecution for e.g. treason. Or she may end up being sentenced to being kept at HM's pleasure in a secure hospital environment whilst she undergoes de-briefing/de-radicalisation.

As others have said above, get her back to the UK (I don't think home is such a good idea). The unborn child is innocent. I'm also not sure about taking the child away from her. I don't know what anti-radicalising professionals might say are the protocols in such a situation, but would her situation be analogous perhaps to a pregnant woman sent to prison - what happen to those women?

[George C.]

Sajid is a Cunt tbf.

The woman's clearly simple, not likely to ever amount to any sort of threat. I'd let her back in myself.

That said, maybe removing her citizenship (and of the unborn child) might act as a deterrent and sate the appetite of the more xenophobic constituency...

[Tactical Genius]

Some people on this thread need to take a really long hard look at themselves.
Advocating the "interrogation" of a pregnant teenage girl. locking her up and taking her baby away.

Its funny that Europeans want to go to parts of Africa and lecture Africans on human rights and their treatment of Women when it comes to FGM, yet have no qualms in leaving a heavily pregnant woman rotting in a refugee camp, interrogate her (note Interrogate and not question) remove her child and imprison her.

You always her those say the west is a civilised place, I don't see any evidence of it in this case.

[Tactical Genius]

Big respect to VT, San Bernard and Ursus on this thread btw. I think it's important to call out people who show a good heart and humanity.

[Duncan Gardner]

Some people on this thread need to take a really long hard look at themselves. Advocating the "interrogation" of a pregnant teenage girl. locking her up and taking her baby away

Guilty as charged, (self-righteous) brother.

Its funny that Europeans want to go to parts of Africa and lecture Africans on human rights and their treatment of Women when it comes to FGM, yet have no qualms in leaving a heavily pregnant woman rotting in a refugee camp, interrogate her (note Interrogate and not question) remove her child and imprison her

One qualm among many; you have to weigh them up. As discussed above, it's quite likely she won't be able to return to Britain, however most of OTF would like it. But if she does, she'll be arrested at Dover or Heathrow and questioned by the Police. Short of being institutionalised on health grounds, that can't be avoided given ISIS's status. Interrogation and questioning are the same thing. If you must split hairs, it was VT which mentioned shining a light in her eyes, not me. If she does return to London, I think it best for Tower Hamlets Social Services to determine the best needs of her child.

You always her those say the west is a civilised place, I don't see any evidence of it in this case.

I don't actually. I suggest you look harder for an illustration of British uncivility

[Tactical Genius]

One qualm among many; you have to weigh them up. As discussed above, it's quite likely she won't be able to return to Britain, however most of OTF would like it. But if she does, she'll be arrested at Dover or Heathrow and questioned by the Police. Short of being institutionalised on health grounds, that can't be avoided given ISIS's status. Interrogation and questioning are the same thing. If you must split hairs, it was VT which mentioned shining a light in her eyes, not me. If she does return to London, I think it best for Tower Hamlets Social Services to determine the best needs of her child.



I don't actually. I suggest you look harder for an illustration of British uncivility

Questioning and interrogation is the same thing, really?

[DCI Harry Batt]

The idea of "removing citizenship"...I mean, seriously, have a little word with yourselves, eh?

[Tactical Genius]

Have posts on this thread been deleted?

[Antepli Ejderha]

Have posts on this thread been deleted?

I've looked and can't see that. Do you know who by?

[Patrick Thistle]

She's had the baby now. I'm not sure how citizenship rules work. I presume the baby is also a British citizen.

I posted about "taking her baby off her". Same way children get removed from all kinds of unsafe environments. It's never a great situation when that happens.

If TG is really upset about the sentiments here, it's tame compared to what I'm seeing on Facebook. People who never comment on political stuff are posting angrily about this. (Maybe that was partly the intent of the papers, to stir up anti-Muslim feeling again and distract from the Brexit car crash.) There is very little sympathy out there for the woman in question. The theme I'm seeing the most is 'she made her bed, now she has to lie in it'.

Also, perhaps TG can explain why "the west" owes anything to people who turn their back on it and throw their lot in with its declared enemies? Begum was a UK citizen, something that people currently risk their lives in small boats in hope of achieving, she received a free education (withheld from women in many non-Western cultures), healthcare etc. Yes, she was 15 (and some would claim groomed and manipulated) when she chose to reject all that and join one of the most barbaric regimes going. If the papers have reported aright (big if), she doesn't regret her choices, even having seen what she has seen.

She wanted to be a citizen of the Islamic State. I think it's reasonable for the UK to respect her wishes.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

She's had the baby now. I'm not sure how citizenship rules work. I presume the baby is also a British citizen.

I posted about "taking her baby off her". Same way children get removed from all kinds of unsafe environments. It's never a great situation when that happens.

If TG is really upset about the sentiments here, it's tame compared to what I'm seeing on Facebook. People who never comment on political stuff are posting angrily about this. (Maybe that was partly the intent of the papers, to stir up anti-Muslim feeling again and distract from the Brexit car crash.) There is very little sympathy out there for the woman in question. The theme I'm seeing the most is 'she made her bed, now she has to lie in it'.

I think the Specials had something to say about this.

Also, perhaps TG can explain why "the west" owes anything to people who turn their back on it and throw their lot in with its declared enemies? Begum was a UK citizen, something that people currently risk their lives in small boats in hope of achieving, she received a free education (withheld from women in many non-Western cultures), healthcare etc. Yes, she was 15 (and some would claim groomed and manipulated) when she chose to reject all that and join one of the most barbaric regimes going. If the papers have reported aright (big if), she doesn't regret her choices, even having seen what she has seen.

She wanted to be a citizen of the Islamic State. I think it's reasonable for the UK to respect her wishes.

The UK policy on removing citizenship from people is both inhumane as a punishment and flagrantly breaches of the UN Convention relating to the status of stateless persons. And it's not clear that the UK's limited justification for rendering people stateless applies in this case.

The UK also deports foreign national offenders - often ones who've only ever lived in the UK, and have been convicted of minor crimes. So the UK says that it's not responsible for nationals of other countries who commit crimes while resident and it's not responsible for its nationals who commit crimes in other countries. It's not clear how this policy is fair on other countries or the people involved - rather it seems to be a case of deporting problems to poorer countries while maintaining a racialised system of borders.

The desire for her to be a perfect victim when she's been groomed, lured to a war-zone, been raped, seen her children die etc etc etc is gross and I don't care how little sympathy there is for her on facebook. Patty Hearst showed "no remorse" for her participation in SLA crimes ("tell everbody that I'm smiling; that I feel free and strong").

[johnr]

I came on here to write something similar to BLT's second paragraph - so, thanks BLT.

Ronnie Biggs wanted to live in a different 'state' - Brazil - and we tried really hard to get him back. But he was white. Much of the discourse around Begum is purely because she's Asian. She's not quite one of us yet, even if she has received a free education...

[Snake Plissken]

Have posts on this thread been deleted?

Not that I’m aware of.

[ooh aah]

Ronnie Biggs wanted to live in a different state to avoid prison, after committing a crime here. Begum went to a different state to commit crimes there. As a general rule if you commit a crime in another country, you have to face justice in that country. To me this seems like a pointless debate, we can't bring her back unless the Syrian authorities agree to deport her. If they do then we have no choice but to take her back. So it's Syria's decision surely? All we can do is try to persuade them, but given our relationship with Syria is not a particularly good one, I don't see that happening.

In the unlikely event that she is deported then she has to face justice. She wasn't an adult, but she was 15, which is somewhat older than John Venables was when he faced justice, and he spent many, many years in a juvenile detention centre. Whether she was groomed, raped, suffered from PTSD, her mental state etc, can all be determined if she returns. But she is going to be detained during that process, and in all likelihood for some time after. So her child has to be taken from her, you can't confine an innocent child to prison. My sister lost her child, (quite rightly) and she was only sent down for shoplifting.

[Patrick Thistle]

The desire for her to be a perfect victim when she's been groomed, lured to a war-zone, been raped, seen her children die etc etc etc is gross

You seem to be expert in how little personal agency she had in all this. One reason to try and bring her back to the UK would be to identify the groomers and manipulators. If they exist. Presuming that just because she's young (and female and Muslim), that she couldn't possibly have actively decided things for herself is demeaning in its own way.

[johnr]

People who are groomed and manipulated also often appear to have decided things for themselves. That's the reason why those phrases are used, rather than 'forced' - and why the techniques themselves are so effective.

[Kevin S]

Questioning and interrogation is the same thing, really?

[Kevin S]

People who are groomed and manipulated also often appear to have decided things for themselves. That's the reason why those phrases are used, rather than 'forced' - and why the techniques themselves are so effective.

So would you support the questioning of her to help determine which is the case?

[Patrick Thistle]

(To john r) True. Which is why it would be preferable to question her to identify the groomers, if they exist. Way back I said about deradicalisation. Therapy and counselling should be part of that.

[ooh aah]

People who are groomed and manipulated also often appear to have decided things for themselves. That's the reason why those phrases are used, rather than 'forced' - and why the techniques themselves are so effective.

They also tend to be quite good at grooming and manipulating people themselves, and the priority has to be protecting subsequent girls from being manipulated in the same way.

[johnr]

To be clear, I'm all for questioning, deradicalising, finding out what went on and why, prosecuting if they find she has a case to answer, etc. I'm just not for the 'leave her out there, it's her own fault, she has benefitted from Britain' stuff. It's (for some, not saying you) a clear racism, for others it's that they haven't thought it through in terms of what if it was a reverse situation. She's British, she's entitled to come back here (unless, as above, Syria prosecutes her). End of.

[Duncan Gardner]

@TG: as I said you're hair-splitting, but if you prefer imagine there's a spectrum of types of questionning. At the respective ends you'd have a routine process at the local Police Station, and alternatively waterboarding in Guantanamo Bay or Castlereagh RUC Station. Begum would surely be somewhere in the middle.

[Jah Womble]

I'd hope it'd be a little closer to the former than the latter. I mean, I used the term 'interrogation' upthread - which obviously carries with it connotations - but if there's any intelligence (in the 'critical information' sense) to be gleaned, then this could prove invaluable.

That all this might be carried out in a sensitive and humane manner I would hope would be implicit.

[gt3]

Begum went to a different state to commit crimes there

See my post above - she is also quite possibly guilty of having committed treason - whether she was here or there.

Also, if I recall correctly, hasn't she said she wants to come back? So, if she can get to the UK there is no question of "taking her back". She's allowed in (assuming she's still a citizen). And there's nothing The Saj (tm) or any other politician can do about it. Of course, she can then be immediately taken into custody to decide whether she should be charged or treated for any psychological harm she may or ma not have come to and whether or not subsequent to that treatment it would remain appropriate charge her (and what to do with the child).

[ooh aah]

Is there any prospect of returning? Is she entirely at Syria's disposal, or is she able to escape? I've been working on the assumption that Syria won't let her leave