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FGM conviction.

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  • Patrick Thistle
    replied
    I take your point TG. But from experience, a teenage girl is taken to Somalia and told 'This is your cousin, you're marrying him so he can move to Cardiff' and everyone is told it is an "arranged marriage". She didn't know anything about the arrangement until she was in Somalia and her uncle had hold of her passport.

    And money often changes hands.

    I guess there are arranged marriages and arranged marriages.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tactical Genius
    replied
    I do not disagree with your main point, however, there is a distinction between arranged and forced marriage. Although in many cases they are, in alot of cultures either party has the right to decline.

    Leave a comment:


  • Patrick Thistle
    replied
    Originally posted by Antepli Ejderha View Post

    Finally when the police and social services tell us that they found nothing and can do nothing they always say the same thing, it's a cultural issue and we can't change their culture. This time I said, "so is FGM."

    Complete and utter silence.
    That "It's a cultural thing" is a complete cop out. I just feel like shouting "So fucking what?"

    Child marriage / arranged marriage / forced marriage is different to sex trafficking how?

    Leave a comment:


  • MsD
    replied
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-47133941

    Quite upsetting.

    Leave a comment:


  • Antepli Ejderha
    replied
    Slightly off topic but certainly related, I teach in a secondary school and FGM is widely publicised around the school and I would say most teachers have some awareness, I.e. if a child says they are going away for a special ceremony you must report it.

    We've also got a large Roma community and child marriage is a huge problem with girls of 14 or 15 regularly disappearing in the summer holiday and returning a year or so later with a child. I reported one incident in October, suspected marriage on a Friday and on the Monday the girl doesn't come to school.

    It took the police and social services four days to pay a home visit and when they finally did all the stories had changed and now matched, it was a birthday party for a younger sibling and said girl had returned to her home country to look after grandma. It's always grandma that they return to look after.

    Finally when the police and social services tell us that they found nothing and can do nothing they always say the same thing, it's a cultural issue and we can't change their culture. This time I said, "so is FGM."

    Complete and utter silence.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tactical Genius
    replied
    Originally posted by Gerontophile View Post
    If we are being careful with our language, you should probably edit this:



    *Sorry for pointing that out. Probably just a slip of the fingers, but it's been nagging me for a couple of days.
    Fixed.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Awesome Berbaslug!!!
    replied
    yeah, that's how I read it too. It seems like more a place for inverted commas than a change of words.

    Leave a comment:


  • MsD
    replied
    That's alright in context (of how they don't want to be seen), no?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gerontophile
    replied
    If we are being careful with our language, you should probably edit this:

    I just don't want to give the impression that we are a bunch of people who go around disfiguring our women.
    *Sorry for pointing that out. Probably just a slip of the fingers, but it's been nagging me for a couple of days.
    Last edited by Gerontophile; 05-02-2019, 19:02.

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  • Tactical Genius
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
    I teach my students how some African women are fighting back, such as those who founded the Umoja village:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/...future-n634391

    It's important to stress how FGM correlates with forced marriage of children, sexual violence, the exclusion of women from education, and various other patriarchal/misogynistic practices.
    I think we need to be careful with our language here.
    As I have said, in a lot of cases the men are not aware of or take much interest in. Such matters are left in the hands of the wife and mother/mother in law and even if the man knew and had objections, it would be difficult to go against you wife, aunts, mother, mother in law. Most African societies are nowhere near as patriarchal as westerners think. A man's job is seen as a protector and provider and everything else, well the women knows best.

    It is also an education thing too, as most men are circumcised, they probably assume female circumcision is probably something similar with little adverse effect.

    Not making any excuses here. I can assure you i am as disgusted as anyone else on here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Satchmo Distel
    replied
    I teach my students how some African women are fighting back, such as those who founded the Umoja village:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/...future-n634391

    It's important to stress how FGM correlates with forced marriage of children, sexual violence, the exclusion of women from education, and various other patriarchal/misogynistic practices.

    Leave a comment:


  • E10 Rifle
    replied
    No opinions to add, but can I just use this thread to plug a friend and local LP activist's (and young Muslim woman FWIW) charity/campaign group on this issue:
    https://www.educate2eradicate.co.uk

    Leave a comment:


  • ursus arctos
    replied
    Seconded

    Leave a comment:


  • MsD
    replied
    Thanks for asking and reporting back.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tactical Genius
    replied
    Hmmmm. I have learned something new. Spoke to my sister who is a social worker as well as my younger brother who has spent a lot of time there recently and the stats appear to be true.
    My mother told me it's was/is very common and is used to tackle female promiscuity and teenage pregnancy.
    More surprising is that this is initiated and managed by women and it is not conceivable the men do not know. You would think in 2019 these things would be consigned to history like the chastity belt, but sadly not.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tactical Genius
    replied
    According to the map. It is highest amongst the Yoruba and in Osun state which is where my family hail from.
    This is all news to me and maybe it's something that's done secretly.
    Those numbers are suspiciously high. I'll ask my mum tomorrow.

    Leave a comment:


  • MsD
    replied

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3507121/

    Leave a comment:


  • ursus arctos
    replied
    I was one of a number of lawyers from our firm and others who worked with 28 Too Many to produce the country reports and other learning resources available on their site.

    There's a great deal of information there that required the efforts of a lot of very committed people, a number of whom are taking genuine personal risks in working to end the practice on the ground.

    Leave a comment:


  • MsD
    replied
    Also a chart that shows whilst it’s common in East Africa, it’s also in West Africa, Sierra Leone etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • MsD
    replied
    I downloaded a report on FGM in Nigeria today, the numbers are high, because the population is high. Sorry, a bit tired now but may upload it tomorrow.

    Leave a comment:


  • Patrick Thistle
    replied
    Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post

    I am Nigerian and so are most of my friends (from numerous tribes). I/We don't know anyone who has had FGM. We (as men) are all circumcised though.

    I am not saying it does not take place, I just don't want to give the impression that we are a bunch of people who go around disfiguring our women.
    Tbh I'd not heard this being a particularly Nigerian thing. It's been a live issue in the Somali community in Cardiff and I'd always associated it more with Northern and Eastern African communities.

    Leave a comment:


  • Patrick Thistle
    replied
    Originally posted by Bordeaux Education View Post

    If it's women that are perpetuating it - albeit under the direction of a smothering patriarchy - then empowering (and better educating) women surely is a good thing?
    Not saying it isn't, but it takes at least a generation to change a culture through empowerment whereas we can protect little girls now by passing laws to protect them and prosecuting mutilators. Whether that prosecution should include imprisonment or compulsory re-education or whatever is for others to decide. And personally I'd ensure fathers get prison sentences too because that will stop it regardless who wields the knife.


    Leave a comment:


  • Tactical Genius
    replied
    Originally posted by MsD View Post
    I’ve posted about this loads of times and have been arguing on Twitter for the last couple of days, so am a bit FGMed out.

    It’s depressing now many people want to make it a Muslim thing. It’s also practiced by Christians and others, especially in Nigeria, Africa’s most populous country.

    Sure I’m preaching to the choir and that nobody is going to call me an ‘FGM apologist’ on here these days, but it’s a cultural rather than religious thing and the best way to stop it is to raise awareness and help women to empower themselves.

    Anyway, the prosecution seems like good news.
    I am Nigerian and so are most of my friends (from numerous tribes). I/We don't know anyone who has had FGM. We (as men) are all circumcised though.

    I am not saying it does not take place, I just don't want to give the impression that we are a bunch of people who go around disfiguring "our" women.
    Last edited by Tactical Genius; 05-02-2019, 19:32.

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  • MsD
    replied
    Women fear that their daughters won’t find husbands if they’re not tidy down there.

    It’s not like here, in Niger or wherever. You can’t just say ‘fuck it’, I’ll have a man who takes me as I am, flaps and clitoris an’all, or i’ll stay single’.

    The vast majority of Muslims and Christians around the world don’t practice this, and it may be that many going through with it just so their girls will be marriageable don’t actually believe it’s God’s will, so it is cultural rather than religious.

    The more financial autonomy women have the better, for all sorts of reasons, so I do see empowering as the best way to combat it.
    Last edited by MsD; 03-02-2019, 20:48.

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  • Bored Of Education
    replied
    Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
    Empowering women is no use if they've already been cut as powerless children.
    If it's women that are perpetuating it - albeit under the direction of a smothering patriarchy - then empowering (and better educating) women surely is a good thing?

    Leave a comment:

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