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    FGM conviction.

    I know we have touched on this (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47094707)* several times in the past but there were a couple of points about this that may be worth discussing. Firstly, it seemed initially, to me anyway, surprising that the mother has been convicted but the father wasn't until I remembered that, in child protection training I have had, it was discussed that mothers, aunts and grandmothers were likely to be instrumental in organising FGM than fathers etc. Not to say that it isn't condoned or even instructed by the fathers, just that it seems to be the female relatives that actually carry it out. There has been mention that the person who actually did the FGM hasn't been found and convicted but, again from training, most FGM takes place abroad so perhaps this is the case here. I am sure we have mentioned before that FGM became illegal in 1985 and this is the first conviction and only three other trials in that time.

    *How do we do a link within a piece of text now instead of having to have the full url?

    #2
    Iíve posted about this loads of times and have been arguing on Twitter for the last couple of days, so am a bit FGMed out.

    Itís depressing now many people want to make it a Muslim thing. Itís also practiced by Christians and others, especially in Nigeria, Africaís most populous country.

    Sure Iím preaching to the choir and that nobody is going to call me an ĎFGM apologistí on here these days, but itís a cultural rather than religious thing and the best way to stop it is to raise awareness and help women to empower themselves.

    Anyway, the prosecution seems like good news.

    Comment


      #3
      Being brutally honest I'm with Richard Dawkins on "It's a cultural thing".

      It's child abuse caused by ignorance and superstition.

      Empowering women is no use if they've already been cut as powerless children.

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        #4
        Originally posted by MsD View Post
        Iíve posted about this loads of times and have been arguing on Twitter for the last couple of days, so am a bit FGMed out.

        Itís depressing now many people want to make it a Muslim thing. Itís also practiced by Christians and others, especially in Nigeria, Africaís most populous country.

        Sure Iím preaching to the choir and that nobody is going to call me an ĎFGM apologistí on here these days, but itís a cultural rather than religious thing and the best way to stop it is to raise awareness and help women to empower themselves.

        Anyway, the prosecution seems like good news.
        All good points. It seems doubly sad that you have had to be arguing anything with regard FGM and certainly being called an 'apologist'

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
          Empowering women is no use if they've already been cut as powerless children.
          If it's women that are perpetuating it - albeit under the direction of a smothering patriarchy - then empowering (and better educating) women surely is a good thing?

          Comment


            #6
            Women fear that their daughters wonít find husbands if theyíre not tidy down there.

            Itís not like here, in Niger or wherever. You canít just say Ďfuck ití, Iíll have a man who takes me as I am, flaps and clitoris aníall, or iíll stay singleí.

            The vast majority of Muslims and Christians around the world donít practice this, and it may be that many going through with it just so their girls will be marriageable donít actually believe itís Godís will, so it is cultural rather than religious.

            The more financial autonomy women have the better, for all sorts of reasons, so I do see empowering as the best way to combat it.
            Last edited by MsD; 03-02-2019, 20:48.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by MsD View Post
              Iíve posted about this loads of times and have been arguing on Twitter for the last couple of days, so am a bit FGMed out.

              Itís depressing now many people want to make it a Muslim thing. Itís also practiced by Christians and others, especially in Nigeria, Africaís most populous country.

              Sure Iím preaching to the choir and that nobody is going to call me an ĎFGM apologistí on here these days, but itís a cultural rather than religious thing and the best way to stop it is to raise awareness and help women to empower themselves.

              Anyway, the prosecution seems like good news.
              I am Nigerian and so are most of my friends (from numerous tribes). I/We don't know anyone who has had FGM. We (as men) are all circumcised though.

              I am not saying it does not take place, I just don't want to give the impression that we are a bunch of people who go around disfiguring "our" women.
              Last edited by Tactical Genius; 05-02-2019, 19:32.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Bordeaux Education View Post

                If it's women that are perpetuating it - albeit under the direction of a smothering patriarchy - then empowering (and better educating) women surely is a good thing?
                Not saying it isn't, but it takes at least a generation to change a culture through empowerment whereas we can protect little girls now by passing laws to protect them and prosecuting mutilators. Whether that prosecution should include imprisonment or compulsory re-education or whatever is for others to decide. And personally I'd ensure fathers get prison sentences too because that will stop it regardless who wields the knife.


                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post

                  I am Nigerian and so are most of my friends (from numerous tribes). I/We don't know anyone who has had FGM. We (as men) are all circumcised though.

                  I am not saying it does not take place, I just don't want to give the impression that we are a bunch of people who go around disfiguring our women.
                  Tbh I'd not heard this being a particularly Nigerian thing. It's been a live issue in the Somali community in Cardiff and I'd always associated it more with Northern and Eastern African communities.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I downloaded a report on FGM in Nigeria today, the numbers are high, because the population is high. Sorry, a bit tired now but may upload it tomorrow.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Also a chart that shows whilst itís common in East Africa, itís also in West Africa, Sierra Leone etc.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I was one of a number of lawyers from our firm and others who worked with 28 Too Many to produce the country reports and other learning resources available on their site.

                        There's a great deal of information there that required the efforts of a lot of very committed people, a number of whom are taking genuine personal risks in working to end the practice on the ground.

                        Comment


                          #13

                          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3507121/

                          Comment


                            #14
                            According to the map. It is highest amongst the Yoruba and in Osun state which is where my family hail from.
                            This is all news to me and maybe it's something that's done secretly.
                            Those numbers are suspiciously high. I'll ask my mum tomorrow.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Hmmmm. I have learned something new. Spoke to my sister who is a social worker as well as my younger brother who has spent a lot of time there recently and the stats appear to be true.
                              My mother told me it's was/is very common and is used to tackle female promiscuity and teenage pregnancy.
                              More surprising is that this is initiated and managed by women and it is not conceivable the men do not know. You would think in 2019 these things would be consigned to history like the chastity belt, but sadly not.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Thanks for asking and reporting back.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Seconded

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    No opinions to add, but can I just use this thread to plug a friend and local LP activist's (and young Muslim woman FWIW) charity/campaign group on this issue:
                                    https://www.educate2eradicate.co.uk

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      I teach my students how some African women are fighting back, such as those who founded the Umoja village:

                                      https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/...future-n634391

                                      It's important to stress how FGM correlates with forced marriage of children, sexual violence, the exclusion of women from education, and various other patriarchal/misogynistic practices.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                                        I teach my students how some African women are fighting back, such as those who founded the Umoja village:

                                        https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/...future-n634391

                                        It's important to stress how FGM correlates with forced marriage of children, sexual violence, the exclusion of women from education, and various other patriarchal/misogynistic practices.
                                        I think we need to be careful with our language here.
                                        As I have said, in a lot of cases the men are not aware of or take much interest in. Such matters are left in the hands of the wife and mother/mother in law and even if the man knew and had objections, it would be difficult to go against you wife, aunts, mother, mother in law. Most African societies are nowhere near as patriarchal as westerners think. A man's job is seen as a protector and provider and everything else, well the women knows best.

                                        It is also an education thing too, as most men are circumcised, they probably assume female circumcision is probably something similar with little adverse effect.

                                        Not making any excuses here. I can assure you i am as disgusted as anyone else on here.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          If we are being careful with our language, you should probably edit this:

                                          I just don't want to give the impression that we are a bunch of people who go around disfiguring our women.
                                          *Sorry for pointing that out. Probably just a slip of the fingers, but it's been nagging me for a couple of days.
                                          Last edited by Gerontophile; 05-02-2019, 19:02.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            That's alright in context (of how they don't want to be seen), no?

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              yeah, that's how I read it too. It seems like more a place for inverted commas than a change of words.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Gerontophile View Post
                                                If we are being careful with our language, you should probably edit this:



                                                *Sorry for pointing that out. Probably just a slip of the fingers, but it's been nagging me for a couple of days.
                                                Fixed.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Slightly off topic but certainly related, I teach in a secondary school and FGM is widely publicised around the school and I would say most teachers have some awareness, I.e. if a child says they are going away for a special ceremony you must report it.

                                                  We've also got a large Roma community and child marriage is a huge problem with girls of 14 or 15 regularly disappearing in the summer holiday and returning a year or so later with a child. I reported one incident in October, suspected marriage on a Friday and on the Monday the girl doesn't come to school.

                                                  It took the police and social services four days to pay a home visit and when they finally did all the stories had changed and now matched, it was a birthday party for a younger sibling and said girl had returned to her home country to look after grandma. It's always grandma that they return to look after.

                                                  Finally when the police and social services tell us that they found nothing and can do nothing they always say the same thing, it's a cultural issue and we can't change their culture. This time I said, "so is FGM."

                                                  Complete and utter silence.

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