Someone Has To Do It: US Elections 2020

[Bruno]

I feel pretty uncomfortable being in the role of explaining what TG is saying. I think he's been pretty clear, and I think there's a lot of wild extrapolation going on.

You don't have to be in that role but you joined in. TG wrote

Biden has not proved he is the lesser of two evils when you compare the policies side by side. When given power, he has demonstrated to have used it more effectively against Trump against black people.

If Biden isn't the lesser of two evils, then Trump is. It's not "wild extrapolation" to see him preferring Trump, it's a pardonable inference. And from there it's not wild extrapolation to read him as preferring that black people not vote for Biden, as he's made it pretty clear he wouldn't himself vote him.

[Incandenza]

It may be worth noting, Trump is currently doing better among blacks and Latinos in polls than he did in the 2016 election.

[anton pulisov]

Black people who vote for Trump probably vote for him for the same reason as some white people do: i.e. the logic of "fuck the lot of them, let the orange clown burn the whole government down". Perhaps the hope is that a better America will rise out of the ashes of Trump's America. That was the one possible silver lining in 2016, but the Dems have not changed one bit in the past four years. They seem to have actually doubled down and become worse.

[Bruno]

A better America won't rise from the ashes. Or at least we shouldn't minimize the ashes. Fuck the lot of them is understandable but hardly ethical. Better to throw your vote away on a third party than to vote for an undisguised authoritarian.

[San Bernardhinault]

Yeah. I can easily understand black voters not voting for Biden and instead voting for a third party candidate. I think that would be a mistake, but it's very easy to rationalise. Voting for Trump instead of Biden is voting to put a carpet staple in your eyeball rather than your arm.

[Tactical Genius]

I feel pretty uncomfortable being in the role of explaining what TG is saying. I think he's been pretty clear, and I think there's a lot of wild extrapolation going on.

Ad Hoc, please do not feel uncomfortable, you are doing an excellent job hence why i am quietly letting you get on with it. I am also impressed in the way you are seeing through their straw men arguments.

I salute you sir.

[Bruno]

What straw man argument exactly?

[Tactical Genius]

Ok, i'll jump in as Ad Hoc has probably clocked off for the day.

Bruno.

"He has made that point but also invited direct comparison to Trump, which muddies the water a bit."

you attempted to make the argument that where black people are concerned, Biden/Harris would be the better bet, I have asked you to demonstrate this and you have so far refused to do so.

The whole point of convincing people to vote for a change is to convince them the change is more appealing than the current incumbent. There is nothing in Biden's past political record or current manifesto to clearly demonstrate this.

I have laid out the worse excesses of Biden's anti-black racism on Capitol hill, I invited you to list out anything Trump has done that is worse than that, I am still waiting for that answer.

San BernardHainault

"I have sometimes considered TG's approach to be single issue - in that he considers reparations to be the key issue. That if a candidate doesn't consider reparations for slavery, then they are basically continuing the disenfranchisement of black people in America.

I assumed that's how he came to this, from the previous page: Sanders outright told black people he will not do shit for them as it will be "too Divisive"."

If you read the previous page, you would have noticed that:

1. I did not mention reparations at all. I did this on purpose as that argument has been done a million times on OTF and we all know where each other stands.

2. I clearly laid out elements of an agenda for black people I expect a Democrat presidential candidate to address. See my post at 16:00 yesterday where I mentioned:
The interracial wealth gap.
white supremacist violence
The medical apartheid system
Preferential treatment for illegal immigrants

So as you can see, I clearly laid out policies without mentioning reparations.

And I am going to make myself absolutely clear. Black people should not vote for either of these poisonous racist clowns. They should register to vote and and not vote (like they did in 2016 and the 2018 mid terms). This will force the democrats bring forth a proper black agenda rather than this lesser of two evils nonsense.
"A moral man doesn't choose evil at all." - Kwame Ture

And where does this third party nonsense come from, I have never made this argument?

[Tactical Genius]

What straw man argument exactly?

See yours and others recent exchanges with Ad Hoc. he is calling out views and opinions attributed to me that I clearly didn't say or imply.

[Bruno]

When I said "fair enough" to your view of Biden v. Trump for African Americans, I meant fair enough. Not that you have no reason to think the way you do. I said that in part because I'm not black and hence am not in the better position to judge it.

My own view is that Trump is the wrong vote regardless of Biden's positions and policies. There's no moral justification for voting for him, unless someone can show that another candidate is worse overall and is the only other choice. Biden is neither.

The whole point of convincing people to vote for a change is to convince them the change is more appealing than the current incumbent. There is nothing in Biden's past political record or current manifesto to clearly demonstrate this.

I disagree, unless you only mean with respect to African Americans, in which case my response is again fair enough, I defer to you. I think that an outcome marginally better, or no worse, for African Americans (accepting your view) is probably a hollow short term victory, since I think Trump is an existential threat to the republic as we knew it.

[Bruno]

And I am going to make myself absolutely clear. Black people should not vote for either of these poisonous racist clowns. They should register to vote and and not vote (like they did in 2016 and the 2018 mid terms). This will force the democrats bring forth a proper black agenda rather than this lesser of two evils nonsense.
"A moral man doesn't choose evil at all." - Kwame Ture

And where does this third party nonsense come from, I have never made this argument?

Sorry, I posted the above before seeing this. I don't know every argument you've made in the past and was saying a third party vote would be better than a Trump vote. I did read you as implying you would vote for Trump over Biden, but you've clarified.

If black people stay home in numbers, I reckon the outcome will no better than if they voted third party. A Trump reelection would be a catastrophe. In response to Kwame Ture, not voting may not be evil but it's an extremely blunt instrument for good, at best.

[San Bernardhinault]

My apologies to TG - I think I raised the third party thing. Not voting is an equally valid action, and entirely understandable considering Biden's past. I've said before that I think it's wrong in almost all instances, but I have no issue with people who think it's right.

And also apologies on the reparations front. I thought your comments about Sanders were related to reparations, because I don't see him particularly failing on the criteria you set out.

[Bruno]

I can't see the logic of not voting being just as valid as voting for someone, anyone, you agree with most. The latter at least gets entered into the record. It's better to be for something. Not voting seems like nihilism.

[San Bernardhinault]

But if there's nobody you agree with on the ballot, why would you want it entered on the record. People will use your numbers to justify their policies. It may be beneficial to not have extra "justification" for policies you disagree with. And it might feel morally and viscerally wrong to vote for someone who you think will harm you, just because the other person will harm you more.

I don't think it's the right approach, but it's an entirely fair one.

[Bruno]

Well, you could always write someone in. I'm used to viewing it as more of a voting against process myself.

[ursus arctos]

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1260752967067525120

[S. aureus]

Wait, didn't you say this was legal (if not exactly moral) a while back?

[ursus arctos]

I thought that I qualified that.

Congress' former absolute immunity was repealed a few years ago.

There has also been new repotting that at least one of his relatives also engaged in similar transactions, ad that kind of tipping would have been illegal even when the immunity applied.

Serving a search warrant on a current Senator at home is quite extraordinary.

[Sam]

Just read the discussion over the last few pages, and it's been an interesting one. If I can venture (from my British, middle-ish-class white position) to offer an opinion, I think that part of the lack of alignment here is implicit in the following:

I think that an outcome marginally better, or no worse, for African Americans (accepting your view) is probably a hollow short term victory, since I think Trump is an existential threat to the republic as we knew it.

in as much as, well, if 'the republic as we knew it' were to collapse, would that be such a bad thing, for disenfranchised people of all colours but perhaps especially for black citizens? With the possible (and, as TG has often reminded us, very arguable) exception of eight years of the current century, the United States has been a country which has systematically shat on black people from a great height. And even after the wake-up call of the last four years, it (by which I mean the system which determines who people can realistically vote for as president) doesn't seem to have learnt its lessons.

In the face of all that, posing an existential threat to the republic as we knew it might even be a motivation for some people to vote for him.

(I'm not saying I endorse that conclusion, merely that I don't think Bruno's statement is all that great an argument in and of itself.)

[DCI Harry Batt]

Yeah if I thought voting for Trump might mean "the end of the Republic as we knew it", I'd be tempted.

[Nefertiti2]

How those Democrats have tamed the rich

https://twitter.com/nick_kapur/status/1260645957651185665?s=21

[Bruno]

in as much as, well, if 'the republic as we knew it' were to collapse, would that be such a bad thing, for disenfranchised people of all colours but perhaps especially for black citizens? With the possible (and, as TG has often reminded us, very arguable) exception of eight years of the current century, the United States has been a country which has systematically shat on black people from a great height. And even after the wake-up call of the last four years, it (by which I mean the system which determines who people can realistically vote for as president) doesn't seem to have learnt its lessons.

In the face of all that, posing an existential threat to the republic as we knew it might even be a motivation for some people to vote for him.

(I'm not saying I endorse that conclusion, merely that I don't think Bruno's statement is all that great an argument in and of itself.)

The statement isn't an argument, it's shorthand for the prospect of going from current/recent conditions to much worse conditions. I think Chomsky has articulated the likely outcomes pretty well, so listen to him make the argument and see if you agree.

It may be that a "collapse" is the only thing that could improve conditions for the disenfranchised in the long run, but there are better alternatives and I think voting with an Après moi, le déluge "burn it all down" mindset would be unethical.

[San Bernardhinault]

Richard Burr's stood down as head of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

What happens if he's forced to quit the Senate completely? Does the (Democrat) governor appoint someone to replace him? And would there be a special election in 2020, or would they wait until 2022 as there's no time for a primary this year?

[ursus arctos]

I don't know if there are particular provisions of North Carolina law that apply, but the "standard" response would be an appointment by the Governor for the remainder of his term, with a special election held in 2022.

[DCI Harry Batt]

It's extraordinary that a governor (or indeed anyone) is given that anti-democratic power.