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Someone Has To Do It: US Elections 2020

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    Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post

    You persistently misrepresent my position. I’ve been talking about finding a candidate who is not Joe Biden, who might beat Donald Trump.

    I think it's essential that Democrats find a competent candidate who has a chance of winning. Biden Is certainly not competent and I think his chances are slim to none.

    You on the other hand seem to have nothing to say but Biden s a done deal and it’s all Bernie Sanders fault.

    Just imagine what the world will be like Donald Trump wins another four years.

    Even some golfers might suffer.
    Well, life looks really fine from your tower doesn't it.

    We are simply saying that millions of people have voted in an established process and the one with the most votes (and delegates) is Joe Biden. So he is what is selected.

    You are proposing some form of revolutionary process where Nef picks who runs.

    I don't remember every saying it is Bernie Sanders fault - I like the guy (I preferred Warren). He can stay in the race as long as he likes. But we have enough cards on the table at this point to say that the democratic selection process is highly unlikely to pick anyone but Biden.

    Comment


      Great job guys.

      You keep blaming sanders for Biden. That’s not a strategy or a solution

      biden cannot function as a candidate let alone as president

      [URL]https://twitter.com/etbrooking/status/1242815702341423110?s=21[/URL]

      Comment


        Nef, if it makes you feel better, it is only March 25. We are still a few months away from the convention, lots can happen between those dates.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
          Great job guys.

          You keep blaming sanders for Biden. That’s not a strategy or a solution
          I'm not blaming him for Biden. Unless one wants to blame him for not getting enough votes to beat Biden. He stuck to his message and not enough voters bought it. A lot of them made a pragmatic decision (in their minds) that he would stand no chance against Trump, even if they preferred his policies. I'm not one of those people.

          biden cannot function as a candidate let alone as president
          You're preaching to the choir on that.

          Comment


            90% of GOP voters will stay with Trump no matter what he does. Biden has to beat that figure plus whatever number of Independents are tricked into giving him credit for responses to the virus that actually come from states and Senate Democrats. I don't think he can do it by just standing upright; he has to give people a positive reason to vote for him rather than just being not-Trump. I can see that he has some policies but I can't see him selling them.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Cal Alamein View Post
              Nef, if it makes you feel better, it is only March 25. We are still a few months away from the convention, lots can happen between those dates.
              Biden could be cured.

              Comment


                Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                Ah now, this reparations thing has to stop.
                Hahahaha, this slow drumbeat is only going to get louder.
                Before I respond to your points, I would like to thank you for even reading and responding, you are one of the few on OTF that do not subscribe to the benign neglect policy.
                Some only seem to remember black people exist in a political sense during election time and they need the black vote for their idiot racist politicians.

                Now let's have some fun

                This is an easy position to hold in the UK, but the ultimate conclusion of calling bernie Sanders a white supremacist, is that you wind up with a half senile shuffling zombie, who supported an end to bussing, running against a straight up white supremacist, at the head of a movement of scum.
                They are all anti-black white supremecists, it's like comparing Coke and Pepsi, both are cola, slightly different taste and both palatable if that's your kind of thing.
                At least with Trump, he is an equal opportunities bigot, he has smoke for everyone. Compare with the democrats where they all gang up on black people and the other minorities are happy to be the buffer class.

                .A more pressing current concern for a lot of black americans today is that they will wind up in jail for some bullshit reason, and wind up picking cotton for free, in the here and now. Half the country wants to go back to the end of the nineteenth century for some inexplicable reason. Some want to go back even further. The only black man in any meaningful position of power, judges supreme court cases on the basis that George Washington is the president, and Ben Franklin might call over for coffee.
                And none of this will change under a Biden or Sanders policy. If they get elected, we will have you guys on here telling me what they cannot do like under Obama.
                ........ohhh the president can't do that, the senete will override him, the Governor doesn't have any real power blah, blah, blah.
                It's amausing how the legislative pen becomes a bowl og kryptonite when it comes to doing anything for black folk isn't it.

                . We are about as far from reparations as it's possible to get. If you can't convince most americans to go for something as obviously beneficial for them and their family as socialized health medicine, because they'd sooner see their neighbour go bankrupt and die than change the way things are for them, then we are a fucking hell of a long way from the US paying money to descendants of slaves.
                Sir, this again is not true. This is the first election cycle in my lifetime where reparations is actually on the agenda and prospective candidates are being forced to address this matter and actually answer questions in the primary debates. Also all this stuff about Americans don't want this is also a red herring.
                Most Germans were not in favour of reparations for Jews, most people in America are not in favour of Gay rights, the most so-called liberal state California proved that in the referendum they had a few years ago. Lots of unpopular stuff gets passed all the time, people grumble and get on about it because deep down they know its the right thing.

                Literally every Bernie sanders policy would disproportionately benefit the african american community over all others,
                The hoariest of old chestnuts there mate. All this "rising tides will lift all boats" trickle-down economics doesn't really work. Plus it is not making restitution for generations of unpaid labour. It's just running game and black people are increasingly not falling for it.
                Especially when other non-black groups are getting specifically caked off. But when the politicians come amongst black people they are quick to say their hands are tied and what they can't do.

                not because he is a heavily disguised Black Panther, but that is the inevitable conclusion of looking at any graph comparing the income of african americans to the rest of the American economy. Calling someone with these policies a white supremacist for not throwing reparations on top of all of the things he is pushing for is a bit much.
                Sorry mate, that's an argument point that the white supremacists like to use. It's not just about income, there is alot of inter-generational tangible wealth in the non-black community so not only do others earn more, but they also have a head start. Everyone knows that the economic effects of slavery and Jim Crow era politics are being felt today. Most will play dumb and pretend not to know. Add to that the way the system goes hard on any black enterprise that looks like it is trying to do something positive, like here
                https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9379646.html
                and here
                https://abc13.com/5713307/

                It's literally the best deal that the african american community have ever been offered by any Presidential candidate who was remotely serious about potentially winning. What is joe biden offering? Is Joe Biden offering reparations? Apparently he's black electoral dynamite, or so everyone keeps telling us.
                Nah, the best deal is reparations and tangible benefits specifically for the descendants of slaves. Otherwise black people will check out of the electoral process en-masse. It doesn't matter if it's Joe Biden or Trump, black people aren't worse off under Trump than they are over Obama, at least race soldiers are actually being found guilty and getting jail time under Trump.
                The art of negotiation is to be prepared to walk away from the table until you get the deal you want, the easiest person to negotiate with is the person who will not leave the table until they get a deal.
                As for electoral dynamite, just offer them something that isn't disrespectful or derisory and they will get your vote. But they won't and will console themselves with the lack of black vote with voter suppression so as not to discuss the real reason.

                Comment


                  TG, why don't you just explain to us how reparations are politically possible in the US, and how calling Sanders a white supremacist makes them more possible.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Bruno View Post
                    TG, why don't you just explain to us how reparations are politically possible in the US, and how calling Sanders a white supremacist makes them more possible.
                    The same way how reparations of every other disadvantaged group gets paid.
                    That's the cost of the black vote. If you democrats aren't prepared to pay the price, then get comfortable for a long period of opposition and all can suffer under Trump and his policies.

                    All this "we can't do it politically" is weak, last week there was a $10 billion package of assistance for Asian businesses being discussed because nobody wants to patronise their businesses or eat in their restaurants anymore.

                    I saw this:
                    https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/fu...thaff.24.2.459

                    Also the Democrats were pretty silent on that guy in Alabama who got the death penalty the other week.
                    That has also been noted.

                    Comment


                      The same way how reparations of every other disadvantaged group gets paid.
                      Really? That's putting a lot of strain on mutatis mutandis. Should we pretend that half of the government isn't Republican and unpersuadable? You also ignored my question about the political benefit of labeling Sanders.

                      I'm not saying you're not on solid moral ground, but most of your energy in such discussions does seem directed at moralizing. Politics is the art of the possible and I don't see how wishing it will make it so in our country. I will willingly listen to anyone's concrete proposal; I reckon most people won't.

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                        If the Democratic Party were able to enact more social welfare policies, on the other hand, I see that as being the clearest way toward leveling the playing field. Reparations can be as justified as you want, but it's a divisive issue that will not enhance the left's political position in the US.

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                          Originally posted by Bruno View Post

                          Really? That's putting a lot of strain on mutatis mutandis. Should we pretend that half of the government isn't Republican and unpersuadable? You also ignored my question about the political benefit of labeling Sanders.
                          I might respond better if you didn't quote Latin and thus I do not fully understand your point,

                          You cannot blame the Republicans for things the Democrats are ideologically against.
                          I was not labelling Sanders for political benefit, it was a statement of fact.

                          He is a White Supremicist because he:

                          Is against reparations
                          Voted for Biden's law

                          Originally posted by Bruno View Post
                          I'm not saying you're not on solid moral ground, but most of your energy in such discussions does seem directed at moralizing. Politics is the art of the possible and I don't see how wishing it will make it so in our country. I will willingly listen to anyone's concrete proposal; I reckon most people won't.
                          It is a moral argument, and the concrete proposal is "cut the cheque" you Democrats love quoting DR King, that's what he said.


                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Bruno View Post
                            If the Democratic Party were able to enact more social welfare policies, on the other hand, I see that as being the clearest way toward leveling the playing field. Reparations can be as justified as you want, but it's a divisive issue that will not enhance the left's political position in the US.
                            You know what this stimulus package is being passed real quick, and it's not divising it is actually unifying and most non-black people are dead against it. Democrats, Republicns, Liberals, Conservatives, it's the single issue they all agree on.

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                              And Bruno, I although we disagree, I do appreciate you have the humanity to respond. Most pretend to care about black people when they need them to come out and vote for their agenda, then go silent when black people demand tangibles for our vote.

                              Comment


                                TG, which Den in youŕ opinion is worth voting for?

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                                  Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                                  TG, which Den in youŕ opinion is worth voting for?
                                  The one that promises reparations for the descendants for American Slaves.

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                                    Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post

                                    I might respond better if you didn't quote Latin and thus I do not fully understand your point,
                                    Sorry. It just means comparing two situations and changing what needs to be changed to reach the same outcome, which in the American case is a ton.

                                    You cannot blame the Republicans for things the Democrats are ideologically against.
                                    I'm not, I'm just not viewing the two sides in isolation. I assume some Democrats are ideologically against reparations, and some are pragmatically against them. The latter are influenced by the fact that Republicans are ideologically against them.

                                    I was not labelling Sanders for political benefit, it was a statement of fact.
                                    Okay, but I don't think you should ignore the potential political cost of doing so.

                                    It is a moral argument, and the concrete proposal is "cut the cheque" you Democrats love quoting DR King, that's what he said.
                                    It's a moral argument that has to be satisfied through political means. Democrats are unable to cut the check at present even if all of them wanted to. First we'd have to get all of them to want to, second we'd have to overcome the remaining opposition. That's what I don't see the possibility of right now.
                                    Last edited by Bruno; 25-03-2020, 17:16.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
                                      And Bruno, I although we disagree, I do appreciate you have the humanity to respond. Most pretend to care about black people when they need them to come out and vote for their agenda, then go silent when black people demand tangibles for our vote.
                                      I'm not even saying I disagree. I'm generally in favor of massive re-distributions of wealth, I'd just like to know how to get it done. If the Democratic candidate for president came out in favor of it, I assume it would be more of a liability. Politically, it seems more feasible right now to redistribute to lower income people regardless of race.

                                      Comment


                                        As Usual, Godfrey is very good on this

                                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYgI1BYpGPw

                                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgPbaiSM-Y4

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                                          [QUOTE=Bruno;n2268917]

                                          Sorry. It just means comparing two situations and changing what needs to be changed to reach the same outcome, which in the American case is a ton. {/quote]

                                          I still don't fully understand so can't answer.

                                          I'm not, I'm just not viewing the two sides in isolation. I assume some Democrats are ideologically against reparations, and some are pragmatically against them. The latter are influenced by the fact that Republicans are ideologically against them.
                                          Nor am I, no still is a no, regardless if it is said with a smile or a grimace. Hence why they are seen as the same.

                                          Okay, but I don't think you should ignore the potential political cost of doing so.
                                          See above answer. It's not the job of the black community to preserve the legacy of Bernie Sanders. He will be judged by his political positions.


                                          Democrats are unable to cut the check at present even if all of them wanted to. First we'd have to get all of them to want to, second we'd have to overcome the remaining opposition. That's what I don't see the possibility of right now.
                                          So what stage do you think most democrats are at, the first or second stage?

                                          Comment


                                            Originally posted by Bruno View Post

                                            I'm not even saying I disagree. I'm generally in favor of massive re-distributions of wealth,
                                            re-distribution from where to where. I can see a typical democrat pivot coming here using some ambiguous terms?

                                            Also, you are not exactly saying you agree either which speaks volumes.


                                            If the Democratic candidate for president came out in favor of it, I assume it would be more of a liability.
                                            Yes with Democratic as well as Republicans.


                                            Politically, it seems more feasible right now to redistribute to lower income people regardless of race.
                                            So give out more free handouts to poor White people whilst telling the blacks people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps because that's been the obiter dictum of past policies.
                                            See, I can quote Latin too. (winky smiley thing)

                                            Comment


                                              [QUOTE=Tactical Genius;n2268927]
                                              Originally posted by Bruno View Post

                                              Sorry. It just means comparing two situations and changing what needs to be changed to reach the same outcome, which in the American case is a ton. {/quote]

                                              I still don't fully understand so can't answer.
                                              I asked how to get it done here, you replied "the same way as has been done elsewhere," whereas the underlying conditions strike me as too different to make that a productive answer.

                                              Nor am I, no still is a no, regardless if it is said with a smile or a grimace. Hence why they are seen as the same.
                                              A no is still a no, but nonetheless it's significant that some no's are being determined for practical reasons rather than ideological reasons. That's actually a potential positive, because such people might be in your column if they can be shown a way around what they regard as practical impediments. But I don't see how rhetorically lumping them together with those who are ideologically opposed is the way to increase your chances of success.

                                              See above answer. It's not the job of the black community to preserve the legacy of Bernie Sanders. He will be judged by his political positions.
                                              That wasn't my point. I'm not talking about Sanders's legacy, rather the political fallout of calling him a white supremacist. For the majority of people, that term designates someone radically different from Sanders. You'll alienate a lot of his supporters with it and be politically worse off. I don't blame you for feeling it.

                                              I think we're still in a transition period where the meaning of "white supremacy" is evolving from referring to Klan members to referring to "the whole system." I think that's actually a political danger to the left, who are largely on board with seeing the "system" as white supremacy, but who therefore don't want to be referred to individually as white supremacists, because they recognize the racial imbalance of the system, which Sanders does in my view. I mean he's been fighting this since the Civil Rights period. The view that he's a white supremacist because he's against reparations is politically extreme in the present environment.

                                              So what stage do you think most democrats are at, the first or second stage?
                                              I wouldn't know, but my guess would be that most who aren't immediately sympathetic to the idea wouldn't have a clear idea in their minds about how to separate the ideological from the practical. They might say something like "I want to help black people but there's no way to do reparations without creating other injustices." Is that a practical or an ideological objection? It's a bit of both.

                                              Comment


                                                Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post

                                                re-distribution from where to where. I can see a typical democrat pivot coming here using some ambiguous terms?

                                                Also, you are not exactly saying you agree either which speaks volumes.
                                                I'm happy to clarify. If I could give black people reparations today I would. My only qualm is if a presidential candidate loses to a fascist for holding that position.

                                                So give out more free handouts to poor White people whilst telling the blacks people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps because that's been the obiter dictum of past policies.
                                                See, I can quote Latin too. (winky smiley thing)
                                                Well no, I'm obviously not for being unequal or unfair about it!

                                                There's not going to be a perfect solution that makes everyone happy. Don't make the perfect the enemy of the slightly better.

                                                Comment


                                                  I don't even know what he's *trying* to say

                                                  [URL]https://twitter.com/jason_howerton/status/1242873804239572994[/URL]

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                                                    [URL]https://twitter.com/russbengtson/status/1243192167989948422[/URL]

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