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Someone Has To Do It: US Elections 2020

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    Well, in Germany a lot of the support comes from people who believe that hospitals, mental health services and geriatric services are chronically understaffed.

    He may well be trying to appeal to a demographic that you don't like (but which votes regularly and in large numbers), but what he said is so vague as to be incapable of being defined other than by pre-conceptions observers bring to it.

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      Originally posted by Bruno
      I'm for compulsory PAID community service, as in local.

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        I was going to come in here defending Mayor Pete, as the accusations here mostly come from the usual non-US-resident suspects who find anyone who's not called Bernie Sanders to be utterly disreputable and inherently self-disqualified from being the Democratic candidate
        I dunno, Elizabeth Warren seems fine.

        But Pete Buttigieg is clearly trying to triangulate everything with everything. I kind of get the feeling that he's not even for half the shit he says he is. He's put it through some kind of BePresident computer algorithm. For example, PB keeps telling us about his faith in the lord. I dunno, I'm having trouble believing that his social science professor parents were super religious.

        Apparently he speaks Norwegian. He speaks Norwegian like I speak Spanish. Buenos dias, yo gusto una horchata. But it is a genius language to pretend to speak. Who is going to call you out on it? Only the Norwegians can. But their language never gets any attention, so they are just amazed that someone can put two words together.

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          No wait, his father apparently spent time studying to become a priest.

          Yeah, that is pretty hardcore religious.

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            Dunno about that.

            My brother-in-law spent four years at seminary and is now areligious (as are his children).

            It isn't that unusual.

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              Over here John McDonnell also began studies to be a priest

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                Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                I'm confused, how do I want reparations? have you actually read my posts because I have no Idea what you are on about here?

                The Issue of an apology and certain legal redress for Slavery, and the subsequent discrimination. That bit shouldn't be that problematic. The Tricky bit is the payment of a sum of money to a group of people, based on being the descendant of an african slave brought to America. That seems reasonable enough to me, but I'm not anyone that needs to be convinced. The issue always comes back to the divide and rule nature of racism in America. Any measure that benefits one group like this is going to be immediately unpopular in all other groups. It's not something that can beat the divide and conquer basis underpinning structural american racism. Any efforts to meaningfully improve the legal, and economic position of the African American community is going to have to have something in it that improves the position of a lot of other people at least a bit, if you're going to get anywhere with it.
                A few things:

                please elaborate on your interpretation of legal redress for "Slavery, and the subsequent discrimination", I would be interested to see it.
                Why is a cash payment tricky, there is a precedent for this in recent times. Legislation was passed in the last 40 years to make sure certain groups got paid off:

                Jewish people
                Japanese internment camp survivors during WW2
                Native Americans

                My point about the African American Community being mostly poor, but they were not most of the poor people is an important one. African americans make up one eighth of the US population roughly, and the inequality of income and wealth distribution of the US means that most people are poor, though no group is on average as economically disadvantaged as African Americans, and no other group has its aspiring middle class busted down by Crashes half as hard. On the One hand this makes it radically harder to get financial redress to one particular community, however it does mean that if you can convince enough people that it is in their interests to vote for a more equal distribution of wealth, then the african american community would benefit by far the most, given that they start furthest from equality as a group.
                The reasons American descendants of slaves are poor are different from other groups including white people. Attempting to conflate them all into a single mass is wrong and misses the point entirely. Plus this is reparations for slavery so you should stop trying to shift the ground as you are coming across likie slimey politicians such as Elizabeth Warren and AOC.


                There are a lot of things that the African American Community genuinely need from a presidential candidate. White Nationalists have essentially taken over the whitehouse, and the
                Have White Nationalists ever not run the White house.
                The United States was setup as a white Ethno state (the first in the history of Humankind) it is laid out in the constitution (hence the need for the 13th, 14th and 15th amendment).

                President is pouring out increasingly aggressive racist nonsense every day. Any vague efforts to reign in police forces have been abandoned and the justice department doesn't care how many black people the police shoot, or that police can stop black motorists and essentially rob them of any money under civil forfeiture laws.
                How is this different under Obama?
                Hot Pepsi has told us in the past the president has little power to affect this anyway.

                A good place to start would be a new Civil rights bill, given that people have been rolling the first one back since Nixon.
                Waste of time, you can have all the laws you like. the problem is the judicial system and the racist police which are the legal and enforcement arms of White Supremacy. even more so are the general public where a majority are happy with the current system and don't think racism was so bad.

                Massive criminal justice reform, and an end to the bullshit war on drugs nonsense, that seems primarily to be a means to lock black men up to take them off the electoral rolls.
                This wasn't a burning issue until white people were getting caught up in the three strikes/mass incarceration laws and black criminality is down. Plus with the internet, judges and DA's are being made to look bad nationally and internationally when the give rapists slaps on the wrists or refuse to even charge white people when they commit crimes. (Please don't ask me for examples of this, there are too many to mention).

                A federal Voter suppression bill....
                irrelevant if the choice is between a rude racist or a polite patronising racist

                then on the economic side you need better workplace regulations, higher minimum wages to push up the whole wage floor, radically increased investment across the board in education, housing and healthcare.... all of these are things where they can manage to develop a coalition with the rest of the disadvantaged. majority.
                Are you the bastard son of Bernie Sanders.
                Those are all good policies, but none address the legacy of slavery or are you going to argue otherwise?

                In this context the idea that you wouldn't support a candidate for president, unless they choose to support a political course of action that would make them almost instantly unelectable, well perhaps there could be a better time for this.
                Four years ago, reparations wasn't even on the agenda, now all Presidential candidates are being forced to address it.
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyMRRvX3L10

                Slavery is undoubtedly horrendous, and its cultural effects were very long lasting,
                But you are working hard to argue against reparations.

                and as someone who thinks that the after effects of the Irish famine on our society lasted in a meaningful way into the 90's, and still shape our society in weird and unpleasant ways today, I completely accept that even if every other aspect of discrimination stopped in 1865 its cultural impact would still be felt today. But then again, you're not trying to convince me.
                But are you convinced, not sure I have got a straight answer from you on that, If you have apologies, I missed it and humbly request you repeat yourself.

                There are two issues here. The first is that it's generally speaking 6 generations ago for most african American people.
                The last born slave apparently died in 1972, if you don't believe that then the next accepted date was around 1938 so not as long ago as you think. There are alot of people around whose grand and great grand parents were born slaves. But your attempt to push it back as many generations as possible has been noted.

                I'm not sure that a lot of people are going to see the link, and the second thing is that the greatest economic impact comes down to what happened in the intervening period. In 1865 after the end of the civil war, the African American community was in pretty much the same boat as everyone else.
                Not necessarily, That was truer in the South (but not completely true). The north was relatively prosperous and had not been ravaged from the effects of the civil war.

                Most people in the US were breathtakingly poor, huge proportions were living on the verge of starvation. Had discrimination ended in 1865, the wealth and income distribution of the African American community today would look a lot like the Irish American, or the German-american one.
                Again, this was more a South thing. it is arguable where black people would be today without racism, but looking at the steep trajectory in the decade after the civil war, black people would probably be the dominant political, economic and numerical base in the united states.
                There is a reason why Jim Crow laws were implemented (which were in effect Affirmative action for white people).

                That gap appeared as the US got wealthier and discrimination carried on at full tilt, and most of it is relatively recent. Yes Slavery had horrible economic effects, but what has happened since is cumulatively worse, more recent, and happened to people who are actually alive, (In part because it is still happening today).
                Hmmmmm

                There are a lot of african americans being effectively incarcerated so they can work as prison slaves today. I mean who is going to put out those California wildfires Kamala?
                And to think some on here seemed to like her and were prepared to defend her until I came on and set the record straight.
                This had been going on since not long after the Civil war. They used the vagrancy laws to round up and lock up black people.

                The other thing is that even if a reparations bill were to be passed, and if a non-trivial sum of money was to be paid to every eligible person, it would be a pittance set against the structural inequalities facing the African American community in its daily lives. It is also a pittance set against the sum of money that you would get by constructing a more equal healthcare, education and welfare system. Reparations are all well and good, but there is a choice to be made between whether people are going to expend their political capital on focusing on dealing with a 150 year old wrong, or dealing with the myriad massive problems today. Problems that are not limited to the African American community.
                You are really against this aren't you.
                The Holocaust was a long time ago and Jewish people are still getting caked off.
                Japanese americans got paid off 40 years after the event.
                Native Americans got caked off not so long ago (and then expelled all the black people so as not to share it)

                Was it Noam Chomsky who talked about presenting an argument to appear it is in agreement when it is actually in opposition.

                It boils down to this. The challenge facing people seeking reparations, is that the US system is and has always been set up on the basis of racist divide and rule, where poor white people don't notice so much how poor they are (compared to the rich people) because they can look down on people with darker skin. It's always been like this. the only possible window of opportunity for reparations comes in the time period after you have convinced people that poor people have far more in common with each other regardless of background, than with wealthy people of nominally the same ethnic group. Any attempt to do that before you can fundamentally undermine divide and rule is essentially doomed to fail, and only likely to provoke intense hostility. So making it a sticking point now may feel right, but doesn't necessarily make it a good idea. I'm getting an awful bang of Barcelona 1938/ UK 1983/ germany 1932 off of this whole scenario. That didn't end well for anyone.
                Nah, it boils down to people who when it comes to wrongs against black people do not see anything worth atoning for and would rather it be consigned to history. You have expended a lot of energy on trying to convince me reparations is a non-starter.

                Reparations for all is not reparations. I will give you an analogy.

                Imagine everyone has a stick apart from the black person. The black person is beaten by all and sundry continuously.
                So to make things even, you give [b]everyone[b] another stick. So now a black person has a stick (good) now everyone else has two sticks to beat the black person. (bad)

                you get it?



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                  Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post

                  I dunno, Elizabeth Warren seems fine.

                  But Pete Buttigieg is clearly trying to triangulate everything with everything. I kind of get the feeling that he's not even for half the shit he says he is. He's put it through some kind of BePresident computer algorithm. For example, PB keeps telling us about his faith in the lord. I dunno, I'm having trouble believing that his social science professor parents were super religious.

                  Apparently he speaks Norwegian. He speaks Norwegian like I speak Spanish. Buenos dias, yo gusto una horchata. But it is a genius language to pretend to speak. Who is going to call you out on it? Only the Norwegians can. But their language never gets any attention, so they are just amazed that someone can put two words together.
                  And this underlines Trump's popularity. He stands for something and that makes him appear trustworthy. Most of these people appear like Snake Oil salesmen who give the impression they would do anything to get elected.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post
                    No wait, his father apparently spent time studying to become a priest.

                    Yeah, that is pretty hardcore religious.
                    Stalin spent 6 years at a seminary.

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                      As did Johnny Vegas.

                      Not six years though.

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                        Great stuff.

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                          After her "blackcent" when addressing black people, it begs the question, what accent was she planning to come up with when addressing these miners.
                          my $5 would have been a Welsh/Southern drawl......

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                            [URL]https://twitter.com/ewarren/status/1119331296470237185?s=21[/URL]

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                              She's playing into his hands - the Dems need to concentrate on income equality, housing and working conditions, even if they aren't "sexy" enough topics for CNN.

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                                [URL]https://twitter.com/mj_lee/status/1119338316170715137?s=21[/URL]

                                Warren has already lapped the rest of the rest of the field in terms of substantive policy proposals and will continue to do so.

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                                  Diable Rouge Unless she thinks this is too important to worry about media cycles and small swings in opinion polls

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                                    I think she's one person for whom this is a sincere concern, unlike Kemala Harris who was atrocious on MSNBC last night IMHO and didn't come across as principled at all, merely opportunist but also guarded (everything was conditional on Congress and the public mood, it appeared; she was going to be reactive not proactive as events unfolded).

                                    I also feel that Warren ought to ally with Bernie in some way rather than being seen in a contest for the Kamala Harris constituency, which appears to be purely Clintonesque.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                                      I think she's one person for whom this is a sincere concern, unlike Kemala Harris who was atrocious on MSNBC last night IMHO and didn't come across as principled at all, merely opportunist but also guarded (everything was conditional on Congress and the public mood, it appeared; she was going to be reactive not proactive as events unfolded).

                                      I also feel that Warren ought to ally with Bernie in some way rather than being seen in a contest for the Kamala Harris constituency, which appears to be purely Clintonesque.
                                      She is now apparently showing remorse for locking up all those single mothers for truanting kids and giving them the full Perp walk.
                                      I warned you about her.
                                      She did another one of those cringworthy interviews where she was talking about the rap music she listened to in her car as a district attorney. I don't hate you guys enough to dig it up and post it.

                                      I have AOC next give myself 6 weeks to turn OTF off her.
                                      Last edited by Tactical Genius; 21-04-2019, 04:45.

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                                        ain't nothin' wrong with that

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                                          Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post

                                          I dunno, Elizabeth Warren seems fine.

                                          But Pete Buttigieg is clearly trying to triangulate everything with everything. I kind of get the feeling that he's not even for half the shit he says he is. He's put it through some kind of BePresident computer algorithm. For example, PB keeps telling us about his faith in the lord. I dunno, I'm having trouble believing that his social science professor parents were super religious.

                                          Apparently he speaks Norwegian. He speaks Norwegian like I speak Spanish. Buenos dias, yo gusto una horchata. But it is a genius language to pretend to speak. Who is going to call you out on it? Only the Norwegians can. But their language never gets any attention, so they are just amazed that someone can put two words together.

                                          Comment


                                            Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post
                                            ain't nothin' wrong with that
                                            Hahahaha, she probably learnt that accent watching early 1970's blaxpoitation movies. I'm surprised she didn't say, "You jive Turkey".

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                                              I would edit 'cr***hairs'. Even though the context clearly shows the meaning is benign, I wouldn't want OTF to appear in a Google search for AOC and crossh***s (hence my asterisks).
                                              Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 20-04-2019, 09:51.

                                              Comment


                                                Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                                                I would edit 'cr***hairs'. Even though the context clearly shows the meaning is benign, I wouldn't want OTF to appear in a Google search for AOC and crossh***s (hence my asterisks).
                                                Good point, edited. Thanks

                                                Comment


                                                  Thanks, TG.

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