Someone Has To Do It: US Elections 2020

[Amor de Cosmos]

Or anywhere these days. Justin's salad days up here are definitely over, for example.

[anton pulisov]

I'm sure there are some people living in the US who would agree with Lang S, and others who would agree with Sam B.

[Tactical Genius]

Which bit of what I said that you dontd agree with as I made a few points you quoted. I can understand you not getting it. I guess some people or more sensitive to comments than others. I will admit that I may be reading too much into this as you say. However, this comes hot on the heels of her trying to Grandfather Latinos into the reparations debate.

Do you have a link for that TG? I have no idea what she said. She's obviously said something to annoy you, and you're going to be much more attuned to picking up issues and problems wrt this sort of thing than I am.

See post #257 on this thread (07-02-2019, 10:48)

But I must say that I didn't see that as disgust at being black. I can't even see a flicker.

Seriously, Watch the video again and listen to the emphasis in her voice and her facial expresssion when she said she wasn't black. She didn't even have that expression when she said she wasn't native American. I say again, I have no problem with what she identifies as, my objections was her attempting to talk on behalf of black people when she made it crystal clear in the previous sentence she identifies as Spanish.
And again she did it in her own slick way by naming three branches of her family and disavowing two rather than just come out and say she is Spanish.

If I were her, I would stick to the green deal and exposing politicians who accept and are controlled by dodgy money and not get into the quicksand of racial politics until she has a coherent plan.

I mean he's just after saying that if she goes back relatively few generations in the scheme of things she's going to start meeting a lot of africans

Dude, that is not what she said and she is a very articulate person.

so it wouldn't make sense. I don't recall seeing any other hispanic politicians drawing specific attention to having African ancestry. I also would assume that when she checks herself that she was had chosen the wrong link word,

That is what she ended up saying when she checked herself mid-sentence.

I mean she was only going to say about herself what she would suggest to someone in Elizabeth Warren's position.

It's not her place, she clearly said she in't native American so let the Native Americans deal with Elizabeth Warren.

[quote] i.e. she wasn't going to claim to be black or native american, or speak for them,
It seeemed like she was until she caught herself.

But had sympathy with them from a sense of shared heritage and would support measures to help them.

By measures she means advocate for reparations, not for slavery but non white people being excluded from the new deal and give 2/3 of those resources to Hispanics and none to the Native Americans. (see link in post #257)

(Also I think it might be a stretch to suggest a link between pointing to spanish colonial ancestors as an appeal to white supremacists. Traditional white supremacist theology doesn't see much difference between southern europeans and North africans.)

The deification of Geroge Zimmermann
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Lowriders

This is just too easy...........

[Tactical Genius]

Agreed. AOC can suggest on American TV that being Latino helps her understand being black and, bizarrely, get away with it. Because in the USA, Latino is just another word for brown.The US media uses Latino as a catch-all term for people from the Americas with a Spanish speaking background. By that definition it's a huge group of people. It includes native peoples, descendents of African slaves, Italian farmers, Spanish aristocracy, Japanese-Peruvians, etc. If Edinson Cavani moved to New York and became a US citizen, should he identify as a Latino or an Italian-American?

There's just as much racism in the rest of the Americas as in the USA. A lot of the socio-economic problems are split down race lines. Look at Brazil. Or the split in Venezuela. So yeah, AOC is talking out of her hole. It would be like me telling a Surinamese person in Holland that I understand their plight because I also grew up in Holland as a foreigner. Sure, there's overlap and some shared experiences, but it's not the same thing, is it.

Another example why this guy is my favourite poster on OTF.

[Tactical Genius]

It's extremely poor history from AOC because race in the Spanish empire developed differently than in the British and subsequently American one. Even if she can prove she has some African genetics, the fate of African descendants under the British and Americans was often bleaker than under the Spanish, with no hope of ever being regarded as multiracial due to to the one-drop rule. There was no Jim Crow in Puerto Rico AFAIK.

Black could be absorbed into 'Latinx' but never into 'American', which was always white and largely still is except in progressive states.

She needs to stop winging it on topics where she is ill-informed.

Great post, and I agree with most of it. a few observations though

You are correct, Iberian slavery was different from the British (and other northern Eurropeans).

For the British, it was mainly business. Initially, the racism angle was an attempt to morally justify the behaviour whilst appearing to be good Christians, however, you repeat a lie for 100 years it becomes a fact. This is why during slavery freed slaves could do well in life (as long as they didn't agitate those still in bondage).
Remember, before slavery black people were very well respected in Northern Europe.

For the Iberians, there was also a strong undercurrent of revenge and retribution. Running the Africans out of Spain and Portugal wasn't enough and drove the policies of pure bloodlines and other such nonsense that we can see the remnants of today.
The Latino culture in the Americas and the Carribbean had a very strict caste system and you could progress socially and financially depending on how much Spanish blood you could prove you had. This is why the likes of Cardi B, AOC and Sammy Sosa (google him if you want a shock) go out of their way to play down their African roots (until they are forced to) despite their appearance.

As for the lack of Jim Crow, the Latino countries never attempted to practice equality and land redistribution like the US government did between 1865 and the beginning of Jim Crow.

Also their wars of Independence were pretty different to what it was in the US.

[Tactical Genius]

Meh. Nobody who wants to run for office is likely to be a particularly impressive person. Absolutely none of them will have not said something daft, stupid, ill-considered or ill-informed on the way there. We're lucky every time we get a President who's not utterly abhorrent, and we're pretty lucky even when we get a Democratic candidate who isn't.

Holding them to ridiculously high standards is the right thing to do, but getting depressed or upset when they miss one way or another is foolish.

Who is doing this, nobody I can see here is holding anyone to a ridiculously high standard. All I can see if politicians being called out on their bullshit. I would not have been critical about AOC if she didn't try and put her oar in with the Elizabeth Warren issue or cut black people out of reparations for slavery.

I don't see you make such comments when Trump miss one way or another

[anton pulisov]

WTF, Sammy Sosa says he is bleaching himself white?

Or is it a side effect of all the sport doping and he's trying to bullshit his way out of it?

Bizarre.

[ursus arctos]

He's been devoted to various forms of body modification for a while now.

It's quite sad, but there will always be plastic surgeons without the slightest hint of ethics.

[anton pulisov]

Kamala Harris was listnening to Snoop Dog and Tupac in mid-80s.

yeah, this shit is getting tiring. and it's still early 2019

[Tactical Genius]

WTF, Sammy Sosa says he is bleaching himself white?

Or is it a side effect of all the sport doping and he's trying to bullshit his way out of it?

Bizarre.

Well, for many years he would be hostile to people who referred to him as black, now he is doing something about it.

This article touches on some of the things I have mentioned.
https://www.racked.com/2018/2/15/170...amara-la-negra

And a great interview with Amara La Negra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yAiI3Hs-p4

[Tactical Genius]

Kamala Harris was listnening to Snoop Dog and Tupac in mid-80s.

yeah, this shit is getting tiring. and it's still early 2019

It will get worse, trust me.
I did hear all of that interview which was also cringeworthy. Worse than that was her Jamaican accent that I have taken great pleasure in teasing my Jamaican friends with
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh_wQUjeaTk&t=2350s
39:10 onwards. I warn you not to have a mouthful of liquid whilst watching.

Black people have gone past being angry with her, she is just being openly mocked:

She claimed to like a Tribe Called Quest and gave a shout out to Fyfe Dog (who had been dead three years)
Then she posted the video of herself dancing to Cardi B twirling her hands like it was a bangra song
Next she started going on about her love of Converse trainers (clearly it would have to obvious to say Air Jordans)
Now reinventing herself as a weed smoker in college whilst bouncing to Snoop and Tupac in the mid 80's..........
By the end of the month she will be a bigger joke that Jesse Lee Peterson.

The republicans must love her as they are not really giving her a hard time. Even troll in Chief Trump has said little.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

See post #257 on this thread (07-02-2019, 10:48)

Hold on, hold on hold on.

She's not saying that puerto ricans should get any part of reparations for slavery. She's saying that african americans should get reparations for slavery, but it shouldn't end with slavery, because there needs to be a means of redressing the systematic official and unofficial means with which they were kept down economically in the intervening 150 years, because that is the period when most of the economic damage that affects the african american community today was done. She's effectively talking about the need to tackle systematic and ingrained economic inequality, and in the wider case this is something that would benefit all communities. I would in no way take that as her trying to get latinos in on the reparations issue. She's talking about the need to combine reparations for slavery, with the creation of a welfare state and healthcare, the provision of affordable housing, and free education, and assistance in getting loans to buy houses. She is after all in theory a democratic socialist. She's talking about redress by allowing people to have a full and equal part in a fairer society.

I mean she is right, because without this, reparations would be about as meaningful as Tony Blair apologizing for the Famine, and everyone in the UK thinking that they could now completely forget about Ireland, all accounts having been settled.

Seriously, Watch the video again and listen to the emphasis in her voice and her facial expresssion when she said she wasn't black. She didn't even have that expression when she said she wasn't native American. I say again, I have no problem with what she identifies as, my objections was her attempting to talk on behalf of black people when she made it crystal clear in the previous sentence she identifies as Spanish.
And again she did it in her own slick way by naming three branches of her family and disavowing two rather than just come out and say she is Spanish.

Ah hold on. She's not talking about herself in the abstract, she's answering a question about the Elizabeth Warren situation and cultural appropriation, where some entitled WASP seems to have taken a rumour of a native american ancestor, and used it when applying for jobs as though she was a full member of a tribe. She's just saying that as a puerto rican she has ancestry derived from African Slaves, Indigenous natives, Spanish colonizers, and a few other sources that go into the puerto rican identity, and she can be proud of this ancestry, and she can support those communities, and their modern day equivalents, but she can't do an Elizabeth Warren and claim that she is actually part of these communities, or their modern day equivalents. Her whole point isn't that she can't claim to speak for the African American community. She's not disgusted at the idea of being black. She looks amused at the idea that she would do what Elizabeth Warren did, and proclaim herself African American, on the basis of a relatively distant ancestor. (the camera is behind her and doesn't show her face when talking about native americans, and she doesn't disavow the Spanish ancestors, not because she identifies with them, but because you wouldn't write "conquistador" down if you were playing fast and loose with the affirmative action rules.)

I'll put it to you this way, I would be very slow to assume any negative or hostile attitude on her part towards the African American community, purely on the basis of the way she defines her own identity as being the product of a variety of sources which she celebrates equally.The two things are completely incompatible. She certainly wouldn't be emphasizing the African component of the the latinx identity on national television if she did. I've never seen any other politician do that. I certainly can't imagine that a member of the Nazi Low riders would do that. (And it's a bit of a stretch to describe them as having much to do with traditional white supremacist theology)

It's not her place, she clearly said she in't native American so let the Native Americans deal wit0 Elizabeth Warren.

[quote] i.e. she wasn't going to claim to be black or native american, or speak for them,
It seeemed like she was until she caught herself.

But she isn't speaking for the native americans here. She's been asked a question herself about how one should navigate this issue in general without causing offence. or making a hames of things like Elizabeth Warren did. You're making "seemed" do a lot of work here.

By measures she means advocate for reparations, not for slavery but non white people being excluded from the new deal and give 2/3 of those resources to Hispanics and none to the Native Americans. (see link in post #257)

This is not a good description of what she is advocating for, and wait until you see how many white people would likely benefit from what she is proposing. She's not trying to steal the reparations due to black people because of slavery. She's making an additional case for tackling economic inequality in wider society on the basis of redress, because you have to phrase the issue differently in America than you would in Europe, where people talking about economic inequality isn't quite as unusual.

The Odd thing about all this is that she is saying precisely the sort of things that would meaningfully help the African American community, in a way that Kamala Harris or Corey Brooker simply don't go near. I'd also bear in mind that right now african Americans are about as far from getting reparations as they were in 1950, so taking a dislike to someone because you suspect that they are planning to try and take some of this hypothetical reparations is a stretch.

[Tactical Genius]

Dude, please judge her on what she said and not what you think/hope she meant.

I don't have enough time to go through all this bunkum, but i'll respond to the key bits.

This is the beginning of the transcript, the important part where she shifted the premise from reparations of slavery and to the effect of the new deal and redlining and thus bringing in Mexicans and Puerto Ricans into the equation..

"You think about reparations as reparations for slavery, But really economically speaking, Reparations are for the damage done by the new deal and redlining. Because, that is where we saw a compounding of the existing inequity from the legacy of slavery where we drew red lines around black communities.................."

I read that as, yes there should be reparations, however they shopuld be for the effects of the new deal and readlining because that made bad things much worse for black people..... and Mexicans and Puerto Ricans.

Look mate, I get it. She is the OTF darling politician and like Kamala Harris I have come out and pissed on your campfire.

The Odd thing about all this is that she is saying precisely the sort of things that would meaningfully help the African American community, in a way that Kamala Harris or Corey Brooker simply don't go near.

Three important differences:
1. AOC is not running for president
2. Harris and Booker have positioned themselves as African-American politicians, AOC.
3. As a result of 2, the Black community have legitimately asked of Harris and Booker, "As OUR candidate, what will you do for us specificly". That question was not asked of AOC

AOC is clearly on an ultr-marathon to the 2024 election and is laying down seed with all this stuff in the interviews so cometh the campaign she can see, "hey, i'm genuine, I am the only politician in this field who has been talking about this since 2019.

so taking a dislike to someone because you suspect that they are planning to try and take some of this hypothetical reparations is a stretch.

Suspect? She said she will divide up the pie with her Hispanic chums. Those were her words.
As Dr John Henrik Clarke once said, "we have no friends" so it pays to be suspicious.

[Tactical Genius]

Well, for many years he would be hostile to people who referred to him as black, now he is doing something about it.

This article touches on some of the things I have mentioned.
https://www.racked.com/2018/2/15/170...amara-la-negra

And a great interview with Amara La Negra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yAiI3Hs-p4

Another interesting Poll related to what I said.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...adultstwice_2/
Note the stats on the non-black groups. And those are the ones who were actually honest.

[ursus arctos]

Yeah, that was yet another profoundly depressing poll.

What's your take on the 5% of Black respondents that said blackface was "always acceptable"?

[anton pulisov]

Could be worse. 70% of Dutch people want to keep black face on children's television. Tradition innit.

[Satchmo Distel]

Zwarte Piet (Black Pete)?

Would be interesting to know what % of Brits would not be in favour of The Black and White Minstrels being brought back.

[NHH]

Would map onto Brexiteers over 60 strongly

[Tactical Genius]

Yeah, that was yet another profoundly depressing poll.

What's your take on the 5% of Black respondents that said blackface was "always acceptable"?

That would be a mixture of Black people afraid of telling the truth to white people for fear of ramifications. Some in the dominant society a very good at threatening you when to tell them something they don't like. As I have experienced myself on her recently.

Then there are the likes of:
Steve Harvey
Kodak Black
Floyd Mayweather
Corey Booker

More importantly what do you think. of the numbers?

[Tactical Genius]

Yep. That's another possible explanation

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

There's quite a few black trump voters. More than makes any sort of sense. I wouldn't rule out a lump of them thinking that whatever their fellow trump voters want to get up to in their spare time being fine.

[San Bernardhinault]

Yeah. I'd assume that the 5% is Clarence Thomas, Allen West and Herman Cain.

[Satchmo Distel]

Mad bastard says he is willing to release ISIS fighters just to piss off Europe:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/17/polit...ntl/index.html

Release them where?

[ursus arctos]

TG, I find the numbers profoundly depressing, but completely unsurprising. I also am sure that they underestimate the actual size of the problem.

The best numbers I could find quickly have Black voters for Trump at 6%.

I'm now beginning to think that I should have been surprised that it was only 5% (though when you add in the "sometimes appropriate" you get to 20% or so).

[Tactical Genius]

Is that 6% Trump or 6% republican?

I can't understand any blackperson who would honestly hold that position. Saying out out loud in the presence of white people is a wholly different matter and that I suspect is where the 20% comes from.
I'm not sure how much you know about the Monique situation. But it's a good example on people having to watch their Ps and Q's in public

https://youtu.be/vdLXZQKhTxs