Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Someone Has To Do It: US Elections 2020

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    This is very helpful context

    [URL]https://twitter.com/m_c_klein/status/1114230184721276928?s=21[/URL]

    Comment


      You can see why they hate her

      https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1114194254996234240

      Comment


        Biden has something deeply wrong with him. He says the kid in this video gave him permission to touch him, yet the kid looks like he'd rather be anywhere else and is definitely not happy having Biden's arms around his shoulders.

        https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...lic-appearance

        The man can't learn and is no longer fit for office, if he ever was.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Bruno
          "There is nothing wrong with being a working person in the United States of America"

          I think that's laying it on a little thick. People want not to be financially and medically insecure, and there's a lot wrong with that.
          What a surprise that you should make a comment like that. If only you gave Jordan Peterson the same harsh scrutiny you save for Alexandria Ocasio Cortez.

          Comment


            She's 29. Imagine how good she'll be at 35, 45, etc. And hopefully she's making the 2020 Dem field raise its game so we don't get a lame piece of wood like Biden.

            Comment


              AOC ripping off MLK's style there.

              Comment


                Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post
                AOC ripping off MLK's style there.
                Anton, She's not thaaaaat!!

                Also MLK was for reparations.

                As for Biden, he's an ignorant racist and one fo the leading guys behind Clinton's mass incarceration bill of the mid 90's. When Obama selected him as a VP I knew what was going on and called it at the time (the black Tony Blair was the term I used).

                Comment


                  My problem with that AOC thing is that she's still pushing the "dignity of work" line. Which is fair enough in the US, because the US still believes it was too much. But it's time that someone started telling America that working lots is not a desirable goal in itself - that work, for the vast majority, is just a means to an end. Working is mostly rubbish, and it's the leisure time that's great. If we can find a state that allows people who enjoy their jobs to work, and for those that don't enjoy it to do as little work as possible and still have resources to do what they actually want to in the rest of the time, that's surely what we should be aiming for. We should be celebrating automation and the end of lots of unwanted jobs, but we can only do that if we actually shift resources.

                  Comment


                    Was referring more to her speaking style in that clip than the content of what she was saying.

                    There is nothing wrooooong with....
                    There is nothing wrooooong with....

                    I half expected her to start talking about diners in Mississippi.

                    Obama ripped off MLK's sermon style speaking a lot as well.

                    ​​​​​

                    ​​
                    Last edited by anton pulisov; 06-04-2019, 14:22.

                    Comment


                      It isn't and wasn't MLK's style for anyone to "rip off".

                      It is a style of oratory that has been nurtured and developed in Black churches since the early 19th century. One that is heard every Sunday in thousands of churches in this country, including more than a handful in AOC's district.
                      Last edited by ursus arctos; 06-04-2019, 14:33.

                      Comment


                        I think most will conclude that rewarding or productive work is ethically better than leisure time
                        Probs, but they are silly.

                        Comment


                          AOC must have attended loads of black churches growing up, so.

                          Comment


                            What's your evidence for this "wiring"?

                            Comment


                              That's a long-winded way of saying "none". Not that it's entirely invalid to make an assumption based on no evidence, but it's best to recognise it as that.

                              I wouldn't argue that people do seem generally to be happier when they think they are doing something useful, absolutely. I think tying that to work is dubious but it was mostly the "wiring" I was objecting to.

                              Comment


                                Aha, the AOC thing was at an Al Sharpton event. Haha. Well, I guess imitation is the best form of flattery. Is she seriously lecturing back people in a sermon like voice about the virtue of hard work? My jaysus.

                                I saw a thing the other day as well where Buttigieg was at a gymnasium in Iowa sounding much less like a Rhodes Scholar McKinsey guy and much more like a rural farmer.

                                They're like chameleons, aren't they.

                                Comment


                                  It's just a style of public speaking. There have been no major technical innovations in oratory since the days of the roman republic. Just different ways of combining certain of the elements of rhetoric.

                                  TG, no presidential candidate is going to support reparations in the way you want, because they would only get a handful of votes from anyone outside the african american community. It is true that most African americans are relatively poor, but most relatively poor people aren't African Americans, not by a long shot. There is no real reason to tie dealing with economic injustice to slavery. Slavery is horrendous, by itself, but The Economic injustice happens primarily in the period after that. It makes considerably more sense to separate getting America to finally address its whole history as a white supremacist shithole, and then dealing with the money side of things separately, because you don't want one to distract from the other. Nobody is going to want to reconsider their views on endemic structural racism if the other thing that they know is that you've just got a big ball of cash, and they didn't get any cash. The sort of thing that she is talking about is a substantial expansion of state provision of services and financial support, which would benefit people in the bottom half of the income distribution regardless of race, but because the African American community is starting from such a low relative position, it would benefit disproportionately.

                                  The only way that you are going to be able to get the American Govt to spend more money on disadvantaged african American communities, is if you can convince disadvantaged white communities and disadvantaged hispanic communities to form an economic bloc. If you can do that, you are talking about sums of money on an ongoing basis that dwarf any conceivable possible reparations settlement. That while unlikely is at least at the margins of possibility.

                                  Comment


                                    Okie doke, stroppy pants.

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Bruno

                                      I attached the qualifier of leisure without work. I think we're wired to want to feel like we're contributing to a community, whereas leisure feels (to many) more self-serving. The capitalist work ethic is a poor solution, since it puts everyone in competition to get more leisure, often at the expense of others.
                                      I'm sure some people are wired that way, and some people aren't. Those that aren't wired that way shouldn't be hammered with guilt about the "dignity of work". Our goal should not be full employment - or, as you earlier said, the capitalist ownership classes using protestant work ethic to guilt the large majority into thinking work is valuable in, and of, itself. We should let people decide for themselves.

                                      AOC is obviously right that there's nothing more shameful about being a bartender or bus driver than there is about being a lawyer or hedge fund manager or film producer. But it would be a far better world if people didn't define themselves by what they got paid to do, and better yet if there was no obligation to do jobs you don't get pleasure or reward from.

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
                                        My problem with that AOC thing is that she's still pushing the "dignity of work" line. Which is fair enough in the US, because the US still believes it was too much. But it's time that someone started telling America that working lots is not a desirable goal in itself - that work, for the vast majority, is just a means to an end. Working is mostly rubbish, and it's the leisure time that's great. If we can find a state that allows people who enjoy their jobs to work, and for those that don't enjoy it to do as little work as possible and still have resources to do what they actually want to in the rest of the time, that's surely what we should be aiming for. We should be celebrating automation and the end of lots of unwanted jobs, but we can only do that if we actually shift resources.
                                        You'd think. But your point could've been cut 'n' pasted from articles I read when I was about ten years old. Then automation provided people with more leisure time, but they just used it to buy stuff like bigger TVs to use up that extra time, a trend that continues to this day.

                                        Comment


                                          https://twitter.com/davidsirota/status/1114646983724036097?s=09

                                          Comment


                                            Big Poor is a legitimate LOL moment.

                                            Comment


                                              Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post

                                              I'm sure some people are wired that way, and some people aren't. Those that aren't wired that way shouldn't be hammered with guilt about the "dignity of work". Our goal should not be full employment - or, as you earlier said, the capitalist ownership classes using protestant work ethic to guilt the large majority into thinking work is valuable in, and of, itself. We should let people decide for themselves.

                                              AOC is obviously right that there's nothing more shameful about being a bartender or bus driver than there is about being a lawyer or hedge fund manager or film producer. But it would be a far better world if people didn't define themselves by what they got paid to do, and better yet if there was no obligation to do jobs you don't get pleasure or reward from.
                                              she herself is obviously wired that way, but it's about framing. There will be plenty of time for talk of leisure later, but the political culture of America and a lot of its language was essentially created by as hypocritical a bunch of puritans as you could imagine. It's about keeping the message simple, particularly when one of the main angles of attack that people use against your type of politics is that you are trying to take money from hard working people to give to the undeserving poor who want to do nothing. . You gain support for your policies by appealing to people's knowledge that they don't get paid enough for what they do, they have almost no working protections depending on their state, and they don't have the healthcare that they should, they don't have the schools for their children that they are working so hard for. And that all of these are political choices. talking about hard work in this sense is an important first stage to convincing people that state funded healthcare isn't going to offend the angry presbyterian god of miserable drudgery.

                                              Comment


                                                Originally posted by Bruno

                                                I agree with not defining yourself by your work, but I think it's called work for a reason and unpleasant work is unavoidable if you want a stable society. Somebody has to do it anyway.
                                                Well, let's try and reduce the amount of unpleasant work as possible and may sure compensation is adequate for it. But let's not tell people they should feel rewarded by doing unpleasant work and that there's "dignity" to it.

                                                I've no argument really with anyone here, it's more with the entire dynamic that defines western, and particularly US, attitude to work and tries to make sure that the plebs are told that they should feel great about spending 60 to 80 hours a week doing something that almost everyone would find shitty and demeaning.

                                                Comment


                                                  Originally posted by Bruno
                                                  Speaking of being wired a certain way, as hunter-gatherers we worked far fewer hours per day, right? I recall reading that somewhere, anyway.
                                                  Men did, probably, but it still depends where and when. Catching a buffalo took a lot of short-term intensive, dangerous, work but it would feed the group for some time so then the guys could sit on their asses. The women, as gatherers, had to work much daily longer hours. Plus they had children to care for and, its believed, breast fed them for up to five years as a contraceptive. This limited movement from place to place and meant the men might have to roam further in order to catch prey. It wasn't easy, and life tended to be short.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post
                                                    AOC must have attended loads of black churches growing up, so.
                                                    Somehow, i sincerely doubt that.

                                                    Comment

                                                    Working...
                                                    X