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    Corbyn and Labour - what next?

    Okay, I'm posting this here rather than Facebook because here I'll get some intelligent response rather than a tedious bunfight which it's vaguely supposed I should moderate.

    There are opposing views on Corbyn's response to Brexit. One is that he is a tacit Brexit sympathiser in the Bennite/EP Thompson tradition who is glad of the referendum vote and therefore not providing effective opposition to the government. All he is offering is that he and his party would somehow magic up a better deal than that negotiated by the government. The opposing view is that he is playing a long game, in which even now it is not appropriate for him to make his move, and that one all options are spent, he will make his move, in accordance with what was agreed at conference.

    First off, I agree absolutely with the repositioning of Labour further left on the spectrum but am not a "Corbynite" insofar as that implies a faith in a leader I always regarded as a placeholder rather than a Harry Perkins-type genius politician the like of which would be required to effect the sort of profound leftward shift our country, let alone party requires. He's a Solksjaer at best. As soon as possible, we need someone youthful, talented, un-hindered by historical baggage to kick Labour on and scotch centrist objections. (A young Harry Perkins, I should say).

    From a pragmatic viewpoint I can see why Labour didn't plunge into the 2017 position adopted by the Lib Dems who pledged to reverse Brexit. (As I want to). They tanked. Even the likes of Yvette Cooper, current hero, were stating firmly that "Brexit means Brexit" and, as has been pointed out elsewhere here, talking up resistance to freedom of movement. They shouldn't be allowed to forget that.

    As the realty of the implications of No Deal have unfolded, I've been dismayed by Corbyn. His current position that Labour could magic up a better Brexit is manifestly bollocks to anyone who has been paying attention to this process - it feels like words to put out in the meantime before Labour are in an actual position to influence matters.

    Thing is, what real difference could Labour have made to this whole process? Corbyn was accused of being lukewarm in his support of the EU in the referendum but Labour still voted circa 67% in favour of Remain.

    Meanwhile, in the 2017 election, by adopting the ambivalent stance on Brexit that they took, Labour made huge and unexpected gains on the Tories, which have helped create our present impasse - the Tories don't have the numbers. The Lib Dems did not help out in this respect in 2017.

    As I say, I don't credit Corbyn with strategic vision or nous. A politician with their heart in remain might have emboldened the current campaign and tilted things a better way. Unfortunately, those people, the Coopers, the Benns, were compromised New Labour types who were a spent force as far as the electorate were concerned. Controls On Immigration teamugs, etc.

    So here we are now. I see a great many posts lamenting the present past who bracket May and the opposition in the same clause as if to imply 50-50 responsibility but the truth is it's 90-10 the Tories - they own this.

    Now we're coming down to the final furlong. May's shitty deal is going to be voted down. Labour might call a GE but their placeholder better deal position will be extinguished almost instantly. So, it becomes a binary position - no deal or second referendum. Extending Article 50 buys only a short time, Article 50 being revoked, the absolute best option is inconceivable.


    It therefore behoves Corbyn, however reluctantly, to opt for the shitty but least worst option of a People's Vote. (In which, strangely, he could provide an avuncular wink to those genuinely disaffected by EU policy).

    Meanwhile, I think it is worthwhile to write to Corbyn and impress on him the case for Remain which is essentially; don't be a naive party to a far right project and don't imagine that you can effect a redistributive policy when there's bugger all to redistribute.








    #2
    That's a very good and thoughtful post which deserve longer than I have time for. I agree with ,most of it, I'd just add that whatever case must be won out in the country talking to people.Esepcially in regionsand with people that voted Leave, Don't write to Corbyn, go on the next Momentum trip to Mansfied- or wherever.

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      #3
      Yes, that too, neglected in my post. I absolutely agree with that. If there is a referendum, don't let it fall back on the "told you so" crowd of Campbell, Adonis, etc. Bring in other voices, front and centre.

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        #4
        Adonis shouldn't be let near twitter let alone a campaign.

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          #5
          Will "blackface" Straw should be kept busy in a bunker as well. And Stephen fuckin Kinnock.

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            #6
            Great post wingco. My only quibble would be your penultimate paragraph. A 'People's Vote' - I think we should just call it another referendum, but that's a different topic - has to have something to vote on; from what I can understand there, the 'deal' would have already been voted down, so what would the referendum be on?

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              #7
              Originally posted by johnr View Post
              from what I can understand there, the 'deal' would have already been voted down, so what would the referendum be on?
              Do you prefer

              * Cheese & Onion Bake

              * Tuna Crunch Baguette

              * Vegan Sausage Roll

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                #8
                Without the Festive Bake included, the referendum would be invalid.

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                  #9
                  Thought this was a reasonable start
                  [URL]https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1083323792687067136?s=21[/URL]

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                    #10
                    Great post wingco.

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                      #11
                      this is worth a watch

                      https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1083441340589985794

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                        #12
                        As is this

                        https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1083442098551033857

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                          #13
                          Part of Corbyn's dilemma is that the political axes themselves have changed in the last decade - yes, traditional labels of left and right still play a role, but the current existential battlegrounds are between nationalism vs globalism, and in that respect the Labour leadership and membership are at cross-purposes. Corbyn's political education would have occurred during the era of Bevan and Gaitskell, when Labour had a distinct vision of socialism concentrated on the English national interest, and any international orientation was focused on NATO and the Commonwealth. This continued under Wilson and Foot, culminating in the notorious manifesto of 1983, when the member for Islington North first entered the Commons.

                          On the other hand, the membership, being significantly younger, have grown up in an era when being British and European were not merely not in conflict, but enjoyed a symbiotic relationship, and this generation took full advantage of the travel and economic opportunities presented by the Single Market and Customs Union. Working and living with colleagues from diverse cultural backgrounds, and indeed seeing the Premier League as a practical by-product of such developments, nationalism appears to them a chimaeric anathema. Convincing them that the gradualist approach is the most productive means to an end may well solely require improved communication.

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                            #14
                            I recently saw a picture of the French Char B1 tank for the first time, (the mainstay of their armoured force at the outbreak of WWII) and for some reason I found myself thinking of Aaron Barstani

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                              #15
                              Corbyn's really long game is for no deal. When the economy tanks and the 99% end up in crushing poverty and are burying their children in mass graves, maybe there will be enough anger and desire for genuine change that people will joyously elect to power a radical socialist government that promises equity. That government can then nationalise anything that's left and behead the gentry and the oligarchs for being the true enemies of the people.

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                                #16
                                Is there any need to be so silly?

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                                  #17
                                  Shame - an excellent post by wingco. Bastani's clip shows a number of responses to Corbyn's election result which re salutary to look at two years on. If you want to be snide there are other places.

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                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by hobbes View Post
                                    Is there any need to be so silly?
                                    Thing is Hobbes, I'm starting to come around to that suspicion.

                                    I'll put it to you this way, a labour leader who was focused on protecting people already are the margins, let alone maximizing the national wealth, and using taxation and redistribution to fund a new jerusalem would be behaving in a very different way.

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                                      #19
                                      Lammy's speech is the speech the Leader of the Opposition should be giving...He is 10 times the politician Corbyn will ever be.

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                                        #20
                                        Disaster fascism is far more likely to flourish in the UK than disaster socialism, and I would expect that John McDonnell at least is bright enough to know this.

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                                          #21
                                          I wouldn't be sure about that.

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                                            #22
                                            There's really no point in continuing this discussion if you just want to troll.

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                                              #23
                                              I'm not trolling. Labour's official position on Brexit is such nonsense, and they seem so blase about the effects of leaving the single market that either they're a) aware of the consequences of what they're doing in which case it's very worrying, or b) they don't understand what they're doing and we wind up there anyway.

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                                                #24
                                                Labout is not in government. Their approaches to work with the government have been rejected. They do not have a majority for any alternative. What a re you proposing- that they vote for May's deal?

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                                                  #25
                                                  To be honest - among your many great points and posts TAB - I've thought you were trolling since you did that 'Labour should be 20% clear in the polls' thing then declined to describe (given the Tories have the votes of that stubborn lot who voted for Brexit) how.

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