Announcement

**loose cannon** · 06-01-2011, 02:40

Pakistan

Yup, Pakistan is fucked

**Tubby Isaacs** · 06-01-2011, 20:39

Pakistan

That's how it looks to me.

I wonder though if there are other complexities about social class and wealth in play here. I tend to assume anyone secular must be one of the goodies, and in their secular-ness, they are. But is there more to it?

**ursus arctos** · 06-01-2011, 20:50

Pakistan

Yes.

**Tubby Isaacs** · 06-01-2011, 21:00

Pakistan

I think I taught you GCSE Latin in a previous life.

Basically "Islamists" do community work, with petrodollars?

**ursus arctos** · 06-01-2011, 21:06

Pakistan

You sure as hell didn't teach me to bowl, which is stunting ursus minor's development as a batsman.

Not a specialist subject of mine, but there are all kinds of layers. Family loyalties, regional rivalries, business ties and corruption are all important.

**Tubby Isaacs** · 06-01-2011, 21:24

Pakistan

You know more than enough for me. If you want to tell me, I'll teach ursus fils how to bowl bouncers at Jack Davenport.

But briefly, the guy was killed primarily because he was secularist, is that accurate? It's what we've been told.

And are the secular really more tied up with corrupt money than the Puritans?

**ursus arctos** · 06-01-2011, 21:31

Pakistan

But briefly, the guy was killed primarily because he was secularist, is that accurate? It's what we've been told.

Primarily, yes. Exclusively, probably not.

My guess on the second question is that it could well be true (especially once you take military hardware and the like into account), but I'm not sure. The madrassas do seem to recruit primarily from the underclass.

**Tubby Isaacs** · 06-01-2011, 21:38

Pakistan

I get that impression too. Do they not worry that a fair bit of the money for them presumably comes from selling oil to Americans?

**George** · 06-01-2011, 21:58

Pakistan

Many nations have to live with the lousy legacies left by past rulers - but few more so than Pakistan and the islamist Pandora's box opened up by Zia Ul-Haq.

Had it's sporadic civilian governments and institutions been up to more cop then they might stand a better chance of resisting such forces. However, they haven't been and aren't, so expect the worst.

Incidentally, leading a public celebration of the killer today was a group of lawyers. How depressing is that?

**Tubby Isaacs** · 06-01-2011, 22:05

Pakistan

I noticed some bloke from the Bar offering to defend the killer for free.

In so far as it's worked out, I have a fairly "great and the good" view of life. ie if there are lawyers like that, the country is in a lot of trouble.

But of course there's grassroots politics as well. Is there more hope there?

**George** · 06-01-2011, 22:40

Pakistan

There's probably hope in that the islamist political parties have never traditionally proved popular in elections. However, that's never seemed to bother them much as their strength lies in other grassroots work such as charity, proselytising and education.

Quite a few ostensibly secular governments in Muslim-majority countries tried to placate the growing strength of the islamists by giving them a few arenas of increased influence, often in 'social services'.
This (usually) kept them out of areas such as foreign policy, economics, etc. But in Pakistan wax-mustached members of the military with islamist sympathies have had a significant influence over the former. Especially in relation to Afghanistan and India.

**E10 Rifle** · 09-01-2011, 11:39

Pakistan

Imran Khan probes Pakistani, and US, politics' corridor of uncertainty

**Duncan Gardner** · 09-01-2011, 11:50

Pakistan

Good thread. The history and politics of Pakistan should probably be better known. Especialy in Britain as the ex-colonial power.

Watching the FA Cup and brief test match highlights yesterday, both Dan Vettori and John Hartson are both sporting impressively full-on Islamo-beards.

**Tubby Isaacs** · 09-01-2011, 18:46

Pakistan

I went to bed with NZ apparently weathering the new ball OK. I'd enjoyed the test match up till that point. Commentators were talking confidently of NZ passing Pak in a session and a bit. They did, but they lost 10 wickets in the process.

Thank God Mohammed Asif and Amir weren't playing.

Anyway, I'm wary of hijacking my own thread.

**Kevin S** · 25-07-2018, 08:49

Voting today, but terrible news already that a suicide bomber in Quetta has taken several lives.

**Kevin S** · 26-07-2018, 16:12

Imran Khan claims victory, and the other parties have cried foul.

**Kevin S** · 01-11-2018, 10:33

Asia Bibi has been acquitted of blasphemy, which is wonderful news.

However she will almost certainly now have to flee the country. Hardliners (though that strikes me as far too generous a term for them) murdered two sympathetic politicians during the time she was in jail, and now there's rioting on the streets.

**Kevin S** · 01-11-2018, 12:16

Yeah, that system still reflects Zia turning Islam into a political weapon in Pakistan - in just the same way (but more so) as we've seen western politicians harness issues like immigration and nationalism.

And it seems to be taking forever to get the country back towards a more secular path:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1342765

**Kevin S** · 01-11-2018, 12:31

In fact, just have a look at the comments. Even 40 years later, split emphatically between what you could loosely in western terms call pro-Zia 'conservatives' and anti-Zia 'liberals'.

**ursus arctos** · 01-11-2018, 16:59

People devoted to making things worse.

The announcement of the verdict prompted thousands to protest across the country, rallied by the far-right Tehreek-e-Labbaik Pakistan (TLP) political party and religious organisation.

The TLP, headed by Khadim Hussain Rizvi, has campaigned on the issue of blasphemy for years and has been calling for Bibi to be executed since its inception.

On Wednesday, TLP leader Afzal Qadri called for the three Supreme Court judges who heard Bibi’s appeal to be killed.

**elguapo4** · 01-11-2018, 18:54

My sister was in Pakistan from 1988 to 2008,she's a medical sister (nun) and at first she worked at the convent hospital in Rawalpindi,directly across the road from the biggest army barracks in Asia,she always said she never knew whether she was in the safest or most dangerous place in Pakistan.
A lot of her work was looking after the local prostitutes after the army was finished with them,usually cleaning up the after effects of abortions.
For most of her time there things were fine, she moved to a rural area to run a small women's hospital , but in the middle of the last decade she noticed some changes. A new G.P came into the area and rumours started,probably from him,that they were attempting to convert the patients to Catholicism.
I was never more pleased when she decided she had enough and came home and I'm still worried about her friends who are still there.

**Antepli Ejderha** · 02-11-2018, 20:43

Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post

People devoted to making things worse.

They are now blocking her from leaving the country. The death warrant has in effect been signed.

**Diable Rouge** · 17-11-2018, 09:40

Ireland prepared to offer her asylum if asked:

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-wo...44990-Nov2018/

**adams house cat** · 19-11-2018, 20:39

I imagine most countries would offer her asylum.

Another worrying thing about Pakistan is that it is a nuclear nation.