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    Originally posted by Bruno View Post

    It's not like the parenting problem had ever been solved or fully understood. We're in a phase of more intensive parenting that's a byproduct of greater overall privilege and material comfort (relative to a hundred years ago) in a society whose central ethic is competition against others. If you leave young adults to their own devices, they will reliably make mistakes, even if (with very few exceptions) you were as good a parent as can reasonably be expected. It's hard for many parents to passively watch that happen. They by and large should, of course, but it's not surprising that many don't.
    I agree with most of that, especially he last bit. I'm not sure it's "a byproduct of greater overall privilege and material comfort" though. At least not entirely. I think fear and desperation on parents' part is a significant factor too. Fear, because since the 60s/70s media attention given to crimes against children has grown dramatically. I'm not saying that's altogether a bad thing, but it has negative consequences. For example, when I was a kid the idea that your Mum, or Dad, would pick you up after school was ludicrous. We walked home, or took a bus if it was too far. Generally with a sibling or friend. When we got home, if neither parent was there, the neighbours "kept an eye out." I spent as much, or more, time with friends between the ages of five and eighteen when I left home, than I did with my family. That time, I believe, was crucially important in my life and that of my peers. We learned responsibility, first hand. We learned how to organise ourselves, settle disputes. We also learned how to hurt people emotionally as well as physically, and how wretched that felt particularly if you were the one causing the pain. Those things can't be taught, they're acquired through experience and the younger you get it the sooner you understand. Now kids have play-dates, and a raft of activities organised for them by parents who feel guilty because they're not spending enough "quality time" with their children. There's no such thing as quality time, there's only time. Period. Time when if your children need you they'll ask. They don't feel your desperation, nor do they need the consequent guilt used as reason to spend more time with you. Give them a long rope, let them make their own mistakes rather than perpetuate yours.

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      Some of that comes from the growth of suburban sprawl and the decline od public transport such that kids can’t really go anywhere their parents don’t drive them. And, as you say, sensationalized crime reporting etc has convinced parents and their nosy neighbors that letting kids ride the bus or walk home alone is irresponsible. And maybe in some places it is.

      It’s important to learn how to settle disputes, as we did. Adults should create the space, to use the modern parlance, to let that happen.

      But so many parents have become over-involved because they remember the Lord of the Flies/Mean Girls environment they grew up in.

      Even in my priviledged school environment, there was a lot of bullying - especially of kids who were “different” - and it was too-frequently tolerates by adults around us. That served no purpose other than to perpetuate those cycles of abuse and asshole-behavior among adults.

      And then we end up with Trump.

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        The "over-involvement" is largely a pendulum swing from perceived under-involvement, which I guess would be most of the history of civilization. It depends on the ethical nature of the involvement, of course, and the individual personalities. A lot of parents and children like having close relationships. It's pretty hard to have an asymmetrical close relationship without the weaker party becoming over-dependent to some extent. Kids are over-dependent by default anyway, everything post-infancy is weaning.

        I'm not aware of a rule that kids with more distant relationships to their parents or with greater independent streaks are less likely to fuck up as young adults. Over-dependency isn't necessarily worse than neglect, and it's hard to find the sweet spot between the two, especially given external factors and pressures outside the parents' control.

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          That’s right. Parents are always struggling with the right balance.

          The parents that get written about in breathless fluff pieces about helicopter parents are the ones who aren’t really thinking about their kid’s development but say things like “of course I called her professor. I’m just protecting my investment.” I actually read that. I have no idea how common that sort of thing is, but I suspect it isn’t very common.

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            Just found a nice graphic for this thread:






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              So why is the story that rich white people are leveraging their wealth and influence to get their kids into institutions that their abilities do not merit in the WTF thread. I thought this was common knowledge. In the old days, you would give Oxbridge a cheque to baby sit your mediocre son for a couple of years and discharge him with a degree, so he could go straight into the army as a Lieutenant or as a Colonial administrator somewhere in India or Africa with disasterous consequences. Now with oversight, there is this nudge nudge wink wink system in place.

              I didn't respond to this purposefully as i was waiting to see how the media are going to spin this in a way to somehow blame black people and i saw this...
              https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/usc...052837009.html

              For the legal experts here, shouldn't this technically be a RICO case?
              Last edited by Tactical Genius; 19-03-2019, 23:42.

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                It is a RICO case, TG.

                And I put it here because a) the tactics are way outside of the "traditional" methods of achieving the same result and b) it is being taken seriously by Federal prosecutors.

                Blaming Swann for USC's dysfunction is ridiculous (but typical)

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                  Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                  It is a RICO case, TG.

                  And I put it here because a) the tactics are way outside of the "traditional" methods of achieving the same result and b) it is being taken seriously by Federal prosecutors.

                  Blaming Swann for USC's dysfunction is ridiculous (but typical)
                  Thanks for the update. It will be interesting to see how light the sentences will be (if they are not quietly dropped).

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                    I share your skepticism, but it is worth noting that there are a lot of rich white people who are very mad about this.

                    And yes, a good number of those are mad because they didn't know one could cheat in this particular way.

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                      Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                      I share your skepticism, but it is worth noting that there are a lot of rich white people who are very mad about this.

                      And yes, a good number of those are mad because they didn't know one could cheat in this particular way.
                      Hahahahah, I would have thought going through all this palaver with fake proctored tests and false athletic programs would only be the preserve of the vulgar new money types.
                      I am sure there is currently a desperate search for a rich brother who paid his way into College.

                      For real old money types, this would be arranged over a game of golf and a handshake. Can it no longer be sorted by a phone call to the Dean and chucking in $250K to the gym fund or has oversight killed off this avenue?

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                        Depends on the school.

                        It took USD 2.5 million for Harvard to take Jared Kushner, and given how that has turned out, I'm quite certain the price has gone up.

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                          Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                          Depends on the school.

                          It took USD 2.5 million for Harvard to take Jared Kushner, and given how that has turned out, I'm quite certain the price has gone up.
                          With the lifelong acquaintances he made there and veneer of respectability he gained that papered over fact that he has been given (and not earned) everything he has in his life means it's money well spent.

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                            I was torn over whether to put this here or on the trump's card thread.

                            https://twitter.com/RAMRANTS/status/1108425817736929283

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                              I think you should have flushed it down the toilet where it belongs.

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                                I couldn't suffer alone.

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                                  Chinese fish being sold on the shores of Lake Victoria: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47611076

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                                    Lynn Swann is not blameless. He’s getting paid a shitload of money to run that department, he should be held at least partly accountable for what happens under his management, regardless of his ethnicity. He claims to be blindsided by all of this. And maybe he is, but he shouldn’t be. Especially at USC, which has had a number of problems in recent years.

                                    Swann is more of a symptom than the cause, of course. He was hired because he was a great athlete for USC a long time ago, not for his management experience or acumen. This model for hiring ADs is no longer viable for major D1 programs. These are $100m+ enterprises with 30 to 40 teams and a lot of competing and even contradictory demands. It’s an insane job under the best of circumstances. Just picking somebody who will be good at shaking down the boosters, while important, isn’t going to cut it any more.

                                    The real problem, apparently, is deep dysfunction in the board and administration. The board has 50+ members. That won’t work.

                                    I’m not a fan of Bill Plaske, but this is convincing.
                                    https://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp...313-story.html
                                    Last edited by Hot Pepsi; 22-03-2019, 03:15.

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                                      That white lady who was taking millions in bribes had plenty of experience managing an athletic department

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                                        Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                        That white lady who was taking millions in bribes had plenty of experience managing an athletic department
                                        It’s a necessary qualification, but not sufficient. It should also require a bare modicum of honesty and integrity.


                                        He’s not exactly a man of the people.

                                        Swann was the 2006 *Republican* nominee for Governor of Pennsylvania even though his only qualifications were, as I recall, years of being the sideline reporter who tells viewers what kind of cleats the players are wearing that day and running some vaguely described “marketing” company in Pittsburgh. FTG

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                                          Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post

                                          It’s a necessary qualification, but not sufficient. It should also require a bare modicum of honesty and integrity.


                                          He’s not exactly a man of the people.

                                          Swann was the 2006 *Republican* nominee for Governor of Pennsylvania even though his only qualifications were, as I recall, years of being the sideline reporter who tells viewers what kind of cleats the players are wearing that day and running some vaguely described “marketing” company in Pittsburgh. FTG
                                          Are you saying that you think he is involved in the bribery scandal?
                                          If so, then what is the relevance is his politics or failed run to political office?

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                                            Seat held in black and white...

                                            https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47666031

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                                              Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post
                                              Not surprising he's a tory, had an irrational hatred for him in the 80s, now I have closure.

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                                                Indeed.

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                                                  https://twitter.com/JewishTelegraph/status/1109145636216152065

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                                                    Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post

                                                    Are you saying that you think he is involved in the bribery scandal?
                                                    If so, then what is the relevance is his politics or failed run to political office?
                                                    The relevance is that he was never really qualified for the job to begin with and that he’s kind of a selfish dick anyway, so I wouldn’t feel too bad when he loses this job.

                                                    He’s not, apparently, directly responsible for any fraud, but this is just the *latest* in a series of embarrassments to the department he is being paid a lot to run. A manager in any other business whose division performed so poorly would not expect to keep their job. One reason they get paid so much is because they are going to be held accountable for the performance of the department.

                                                    In this particular case, it’s got nothing to do with his ethnicity. His predecessor, Pat Haden, is white and was pushed out for the same kind of non-management as was the guy before him, whose name escapes me.

                                                    They keep hiring people based on their credentials as “Trojans” and not for their ability to clean up what is obviously a very screwed-up operation.


                                                    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/22/s...orts&smtyp=cur

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