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  • San Bernardhinault
    replied
    Switch the tea for beer and the biscuits for crisps, and you’re on to a winner

    If that’s too hardcore, switch the tea for coffee and the dry, Rich Tea biscuits for gooey American cookies, and you’ve still made a step change improvement.

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  • caja-dglh
    replied
    Switch the tea out for gravy. Perfect.

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  • San Bernardhinault
    replied
    Tea and biscuits would be fine without the tea, and as long as they were good biscuits rather than the kinds usually served with tea.

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  • Nocturnal Submission
    replied
    Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post

    I see. Versions of those exist here too. Often informally or as part of a "class" like music, swimming, etc.

    But, as you explain, the more urgent need churches are trying to meet here is for places that will actually take care of/educate the kid while the parents are working.


    I noticed that the UK has tea and biscuits available everywhere. St. Paul's had/has a little cafe. My parents, who are keen on old churches, reported that this is typical in the UK.

    One one of those shows about homicide investigators in Scotland - there are several - had a plot about somebody who died at a rock climbing gym. What stood out to me was not the homicide, but that the climbing gym had a little cafe with tea and biscuits.

    I follow a few UK based youtubers that just show where they walk their dog. There is tea and biscuits available from a van or a little hut about every 100 yards in the UK, apparently. It's fantastic.

    We obviously don't have tea and biscuits everywhere - or, really, anywhere - but we don't even have shitty coffee available as widely as you have tea and biscuits.

    Tea & biscuit outlets aren't quite that ubiquitous over here, but they should be.
    Last edited by Nocturnal Submission; 13-01-2024, 01:17.

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  • Nocturnal Submission
    replied
    Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
    Am I the only one who smiled when the phrase "broad church" was used to describe Jewish attitudes towards faith?

    That reminds me of something I was going to mention yesterday, which falls into the category of a incredibly unfortunate, or unlucky perhaps, choice of words.

    I was watching the BBC news last night and there was an item about Prince William at the Headingley Rugby Stadium, where he was presenting Rob Burrow & Kevin Sinfield with their CBEs for MND research fundraising. At one point, as they were going up the tunnel towards the pitch, Williams turns to the others and says that going out onto the pitch before a game must have been "spine tingling."

    I'm sure no-one was offended but there might have been the odd internalised "ouch!"

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  • Balderdasha
    replied
    Incidentally, in my house I don't usually have biscuits but the first thing I do in the morning is drink a cup of tea.

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  • Balderdasha
    replied
    Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post

    I noticed that the UK has tea and biscuits available everywhere.
    Yes. Also, the minute you step inside anyone's house here, they will offer you tea, with the option of milk and / or sugar, and probably biscuits.

    Most offices in the UK have a little kitchenette with a store of tea, milk and biscuits. Children's birthday parties usually serve tea and biscuits to the adults. Teachers' staff rooms are full of tea and biscuits. What's served at a funeral? Tea and biscuits.

    I've met people who subsist on nothing but tea and biscuits, including my own grandmother, though she did occasionally supplement with cake.

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  • Patrick Thistle
    replied
    Am I the only one who smiled when the phrase "broad church" was used to describe Jewish attitudes towards faith?

    Leave a comment:


  • Hot Pepsi
    replied
    Originally posted by WOM View Post

    External markers of group identity, innit?
    Yeah, that's it. There may be some story about why God wants them to wear it, but that does not seem to be the main motivation.

    I can see how that goes. Even if you came to think that the hat wasn't really necessary - either because you'd lost that faith completely or just determined that it doesn't matter - there'd be that moment where you took it off and realized you were breaking however many hundreds of years of tradition and, perhaps, taking one small step toward leaving the only culture that you know.

    That would be hard to do.

    I've had small versions of those moments.

    "Do I really need a jacket and tie for this? Maybe not....Well, my grandfather would have worn a jacket and tie. He'd be appalled by the dress code these days...Maybe I should..."

    Leave a comment:


  • Hot Pepsi
    replied
    Originally posted by Balderdasha View Post

    It's a bit different to what you're describing. It's not a formal nursery or daycare or pre-school where you can leave your child. It's a play session that you can take your child to but the parent or grandparent or nanny or whoever has to stay there with the child. The benefit is, as I said, a large space, lots of toys, sometimes organised activities, tea and biscuits, plus not being isolated at home with a young child, you can talk to other parents and vaguely maintain your sanity. There's usually a small voluntary donation so even families who can't afford the £1 or £2 donation can attend.

    I suspect that there are more of these in the UK because we get paid maternity leave. If you have to go back to work straight away you need daycare. If you're off work for a year looking after a baby or a baby and a toddler (on your second round of maternity leave) you need playgroups.
    ​​​​​​
    I see. Versions of those exist here too. Often informally or as part of a "class" like music, swimming, etc.

    But, as you explain, the more urgent need churches are trying to meet here is for places that will actually take care of/educate the kid while the parents are working.


    I noticed that the UK has tea and biscuits available everywhere. St. Paul's had/has a little cafe. My parents, who are keen on old churches, reported that this is typical in the UK.

    One one of those shows about homicide investigators in Scotland - there are several - had a plot about somebody who died at a rock climbing gym. What stood out to me was not the homicide, but that the climbing gym had a little cafe with tea and biscuits.

    I follow a few UK based youtubers that just show where they walk their dog. There is tea and biscuits available from a van or a little hut about every 100 yards in the UK, apparently. It's fantastic.

    We obviously don't have tea and biscuits everywhere - or, really, anywhere - but we don't even have shitty coffee available as widely as you have tea and biscuits.

    Leave a comment:


  • WOM
    replied
    Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post
    It seems to be universal, or almost universal, that religious identity is about wearing a certain kind of hat. I could have done a dissertation on that. I'm glad I didn't, but it is curious.
    External markers of group identity, innit?

    Leave a comment:


  • Balderdasha
    replied
    Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post

    I'm not sure what you mean by a "playgroup,"
    It's a bit different to what you're describing. It's not a formal nursery or daycare or pre-school where you can leave your child. It's a play session that you can take your child to but the parent or grandparent or nanny or whoever has to stay there with the child. The benefit is, as I said, a large space, lots of toys, sometimes organised activities, tea and biscuits, plus not being isolated at home with a young child, you can talk to other parents and vaguely maintain your sanity. There's usually a small voluntary donation so even families who can't afford the £1 or £2 donation can attend.

    I suspect that there are more of these in the UK because we get paid maternity leave. If you have to go back to work straight away you need daycare. If you're off work for a year looking after a baby or a baby and a toddler (on your second round of maternity leave) you need playgroups.
    ​​​​​​

    Leave a comment:


  • Hot Pepsi
    replied
    Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission View Post


    It would be ungallant of me to say that she's built like a brick shithouse, but if I ever wanted to raise a barn in my back garden she'd be the first person I'd call.
    Commodores earworm.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nocturnal Submission
    replied
    Originally posted by WOM View Post

    If she was ever at a barn-raising that was going pear shaped, I'll bet she'd show her true colours.

    It would be ungallant of me to say that she's built like a brick shithouse, but if I ever wanted to raise a barn in my back garden she'd be the first person I'd call.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hot Pepsi
    replied
    It seems to be universal, or almost universal, that religious identity is about wearing a certain kind of hat. I could have done a dissertation on that. I'm glad I didn't, but it is curious.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nocturnal Submission
    replied

    Yeah, she's definitely one of the "mainline" stream. If she had to abandon her FB account she'd have a meltdown, which I understand is not something which you'd want to help precipitate.

    Leave a comment:


  • WOM
    replied
    Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission View Post
    ... or how she presents herself, that would give you a clue as to her religion.
    If she was ever at a barn-raising that was going pear shaped, I'll bet she'd show her true colours.

    Leave a comment:


  • ursus arctos
    replied
    Congregations worldwide embody various approaches to Mennonite practice, ranging from Old Order Mennonites (who practice a lifestyle without certain elements of modern technology) to Conservative Mennonites (who hold to traditional theological distinctives, wear plain dress and use modern conveniences) to mainline Mennonites (those who are indistinguishable in dress and appearance from the general population).​

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  • Nocturnal Submission
    replied
    Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post
    **Anabaptists also include Mennonites. But that is a very broad tradition, ranging from far-right evangelical/Trumpy types to far-left inclusive types like a pastor here that I got to know because he's into baseball. There are also a lot of Mennonite people I see around who wear the hats and what not, but drive cars and go to Trader Joe's, etc.

    Mennonites are also way into volleyball. Fuck, can they run.

    Mrs. NS's brother married a Mennonite. Not that I've spent a vast amount of time with her, but I can't think of a single thing that she's ever said or done, or how she presents herself, that would give you a clue as to her religion. I was actually quite surprised to discover that her faith had an anti-modern wing.

    (Mrs. NS's parents, devout Roman Catholics, saw their four children marry* a Jew, an Anglican, a Mennonite and, well I'm not sure what Ron was other than more than twice the age of Mrs. NS's sister!)

    * Separately

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  • Hot Pepsi
    replied
    Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
    At least around here the catholic church has no church halls and isnt into the childcare gig at all (bar getting their claws into the governance and "ethos" of 90% of state funded schools).

    Most commercial creches, Montessoris and playgroups in this part of exurban Dublin are in people's houses rather than purpose built premises, which seems a bit wild to me (i doubt theres much in the way of enforcing compliance with fire safety standards/max numbers per supervisor).
    My grandmother ran one of those in Cincinnati in the 50s. I'm sure that would be impossible now with all of the regulations and insurance and what not.

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  • Lang Spoon
    replied
    At least around here the catholic church has no church halls and isnt into the childcare gig at all (bar getting their claws into the governance and "ethos" of 90% of state funded schools).

    Most commercial creches, Montessoris and playgroups in this part of exurban Dublin are in people's houses rather than purpose built premises, which seems a bit wild to me (i doubt theres much in the way of enforcing compliance with fire safety standards/max numbers per supervisor).
    Last edited by Lang Spoon; 12-01-2024, 18:05.

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  • Hot Pepsi
    replied
    Originally posted by Balderdasha View Post
    Would that sort of thing work in the USA? Or would you not be allowed to roam around all the different religious playgroup providers without being affiliated with any of them? Is there even the same concept of playgroups for pre-schoolers?
    I'm not sure what you mean by a "playgroup," but most churches around here run a pre-school/daycare. I went to pre-school at two different churches. One of which, the Episcopalian one, just happened to be close to our house at that time. The other one, Lutheran, was actually our church for a while, but I think we only started going there after I was in preschool there. I don't really recall how I ended up there, but I think it had something to do with my mom knowing some of the other moms so there was a viable carpool.

    My church runs "Stay & Play" which is a sort of daycare/preschool for young kids. It's a way to use the building for something useful during the week and serve the community. Most parents pay for it, but those who can't are quietly subsidized.

    At ours - and most I know about - you don't have to be a member of that church to have your kid in the pre-school. The level of churchiness in the curriculum will vary from place to place. There isn't much in ours. There isn't much churchiness in the actual church part of our church either, relatively speaking.

    There is often a waitlist to get into a preschool here - not because it's competitive, but because there are only so many classrooms and preschool teachers available. Every parent would prefer their kid to be in a good preschool near their work, so there are supply-and-demand issues.

    As such, I think some churches may give preference to families that are in the church. I'm not sure we still do that, but we might.

    We don't do evangelism. The best we can do is be welcoming and inclusive and, perhaps, offer reasons why people might have a positive experience with our church and want to maybe check it out on Sunday. The preschool is one of those "contact points" (although we don't use marketing language like that), so there are families who joined the church after first just sending their kids to the preschool.

    It carries some security-related costs. We haven't had any issues, but we've had to put in an electronic lock system so that nobody can just come into that part of the building when the kids are there.

    A lot of people in the US do worry about shooters or random pedophiles or whatever, but those are not the threats we're mainly worried about. The most common security issue in schools are those ugly situations where one parent or relative is trying to take custody of the kid by force. That's extremely common. I know people who went through that as kids.

    The other security issue are parents who want to come in and scream at the teachers or assholes who want to take "woke" books out of the library etc. That's not super common, I suppose, but not unheard of.






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  • ursus arctos
    replied
    Ultraorthodox is fine and often used as a translation for Haredi.

    As you note, issues of education and employment within those communities can be very fraught.

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  • Hot Pepsi
    replied
    Originally posted by caja-dglh View Post

    I don't think it as too unfair to compare Hasidim as a whole to the Amish. They share a lot of similarities though the Amish live in the middle of nowhere rather than right in the middle of New York.
    This is obviously germane to my geography.

    I don't take offense to central Pennsylvania being called the "middle of nowhere." I hope it can stay that way, in fact. But the reality is that somewhere is gradually encroaching on somewhere and that does cause some conflicts.*

    The dream of every Amish man owning his own farm is now impossible (maybe it always was, but it's even further from reality now). There is less farmland available every year because of suburban growth and yet, the Amish population isn't really shrinking. At least not as fast as modernity is encroaching. Nobody joins and a few leave every year, but they have more than enough kids to replace them.

    So a lot of them are going into construction. Like the guys who are going to do my roof. (The scheduling guy is only available to talk on the phone during two 20 minute windows every week day. Or you can leave a message and he'll call back during one of those windows.) But that means they're not so self-reliant and independent, which puts stress on their whole culture.

    I suspect the same happens in these Jewish communities. Not every son can become a rabbi or go into whatever it is their dad did, so they have to branch out into other lines of work and that brings them more into commerce with the rest of the community.


    Most people who just pass through rural PA think the Amish are charming and quaint and they tend to be romanticized and even commercialized. Maybe there's some of that in New York too. They're seen as just part of the unique colorful tapestry of New York that hipsters in Brooklyn love to put on the 'gram.

    I respect the Anabaptists'** commitment to peace, their mindfulness about technology and that they let young people choose to be in or out. Even a lot of putatively progressive modern people don't really let their kids do that. And I respect that they're just human beings like the rest of us, of course.

    But a lot of them are, to be blunt, a bit fucking backwards. In the more traditional communities, at least, education is not really a thing. Women don't have a lot of options. And the Amish are notoriously terrible toward animals. (I'm sure #notallamish, but I once saw a map of all the "puppy mills" that the state had shut down and a disproportionate number of them were in Lancaster County).

    As with the Ultraorthodox (is that a PC term?) Jews, I think the tendency in the US is to not be too critical of those people lest one come off as a bigot. For those who are part of their broader tradition - Judaism in the case of the Hasidic communities and Christianity in the case of the Anabaptists - there may be a feeling like we ought to really respect those people's commitment to the bit and maybe feel a bit bad that we're not as "pure" as they are.

    For a lot of reasons, modernity for its own sake is not great, but neither is tradition, especially when it comes to religion. I tend to think that being adamantly committed to a traditional way of life, no matter what, is just a way to avoid having to deal with the complicated questions that life poses.

    I hope we can be respectful and compassionate while still being honest about that.


    *Navigating around Amish buggies is a regular feature of my drive to my parent's house. I don't think much of it because it's been that way my whole life. I tend to worry more about the animals. The horses don't have a choice.​

    **Anabaptists also include Mennonites. But that is a very broad tradition, ranging from far-right evangelical/Trumpy types to far-left inclusive types like a pastor here that I got to know because he's into baseball. There are also a lot of Mennonite people I see around who wear the hats and what not, but drive cars and go to Trader Joe's, etc.

    Mennonites are also way into volleyball. Fuck, can they run.

    Leave a comment:


  • ursus arctos
    replied
    Originally posted by Balderdasha View Post
    Would that sort of thing work in the USA? Or would you not be allowed to roam around all the different religious playgroup providers without being affiliated with any of them? Is there even the same concept of playgroups for pre-schoolers?
    Yes it would work (at least around here) and there would be a number of groups arranged by non-religious organisations.

    One of which happens to be the Children's Museum.

    Generally, no one would care if you were affiliated or not.

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