my lord. Look at what our minister for Justice had to say about homosexuality when it was being decriminalised back in 1993.
I do not often find myself in agreement with my constituency colleague, Deputy McGahon, but on this occasion I am. Perhaps it has something to do with the atmosphere in our constituency.
A Deputy: Sellafield.
Mr. D. Ahern: I have reservations about this legislation. I have already made these views known privately to the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party and the Minister.
Reference has been made to our international obligations. However, no reference seems to have been made to the Constitution of this Republic. I wish to give some Members of the House food for thought by quoting from the Constitution. Article 40.1 states:
All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.
This shall not be held to mean that the State shall not in its enactments have due regard to differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function.
That question bears some thought. In regard to the family, Article 41.1.1º states:
The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.
Article 41.1.2º states:
The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority ...
Article 45, which outlines the directive principles of social policy, states:
The principles of social policy set forth in this Article are intended for the general guidance of the Oireachtas. The application of those principles in the making of laws shall be the care of the Oireachtas exclusively ...
Article 45.1 states:
The State shall strive to promote the welfare of the whole people by securing and protecting as effectively as it may a social order in which justice and charity shall inform all the institutions of the national life.
I am not being intolerant in my remarks. Anyone who knows me well knows that I am a very tolerant person. As legislators, we have a duty to legislate for the common good. We seem to have reached the stage where we are legislating for pressure and minority groups. We have a duty to consider what is in the common good of all the people and to legislate for that. We should not legislate for hard cases, I do not say this in any intolerant way but we should legislate for the common good.
Reference was made to our international obligations. We have a duty to legislate for the standards and norms which we regard as appropriate for the Irish people. This does not necessarily have to include all the people, but we should strive to achieve a certain standard and norm in our society. The Houses of the Oireachtas have the primary function of laying down rules for the people and the standards they should strive to achieve, and we should never forget that.
2036
I quoted from Article 41 of the Constitution which deals with the position of the family in our society. Many countries, including Britain, are now looking at why families are breaking down. The tragic murder of the young Bolger child in England led to people questioning why society is breaking down in that country. One of the reasons given for the breakdown of society is that the family unit is breaking down. We should strive to protect the family unit as the primary unit in our society. That is not to say that families do not break up — of course they do — but we should aspire to attain that. I think most Deputies would agree with those sentiments.
It was stated that we would be in breach of the charter of the European Court of Human Rights if we did not introduce legislation to implement its decision. I do not for one minute accept that we have to implement this decision. Britain has decided to derogate from the Social Charter and, in effect, from European monetary union. Yet, business is still being conducted and no one seems to have taken the British Government to task for this.
Much play is made of the word “equality”, for example, equality in regard to the age limit. I wonder if this issue will end here. Will the pressure groups which have succeeded in having this legislation brought before the House stop here? I think not. Will we eventually see the day in this country when, as has happened in the USA, homosexuals will seek the right to adopt children? We should think seriously about this possibility.
I have a problem with the age limit of 17 years. I appreciate that the Minister is endeavouring to equalise the age limits for both homosexuals and heterosexuals. However, under the child care legislation passed by this House a child is defined as anyone under the age of 18 years. We should bear this in mind.
I have a problem with the provisions on prostitution. I understood that the norm in Europe was to liberalise the laws on prostitution but——
This man is our minister for Justice. The contribution of Bertie Ahern's brother Noel is fucking priceless.
Mr. N. Ahern: I will not claim that I welcome the Bill. Indeed, it is sad that we are being forced to introduce legislation that is alien to the moral standards and ethos of many of our people. I am aware of the decision of the European Court of Human Rights and that we are a member of the Council of Europe. However, we should have sought a derogation from the ruling on grounds of the nation's welfare and morals. I heard — I do not know if this is true — that the Council of Europe granted a derogation to Liechtenstein on a similar issue.
2031
It is not an offence to be homosexual, rather it is an offence to commit buggery. That is an unnatural and unhealthy act and those who engage in it — statistics prove this — account for a disproportionate share of those who suffer from sexually transmitted diseases. Society makes laws to discourage unhealthy, unwelcome or anti-social behaviour, be it smoking, buggery, drug taking and so on. Homosexuals live a secret and lonely life in many cases and we should adopt an understanding, [2031] caring and sympathetic approach to them. The question that arises is whether the rights of the individual or the common good should be uppermost in our minds. The State has an interest in the general and moral well being of the community. Commonsense tell us therefore that it should discourage conduct which is harmful to the way of life and the values which it wishes to foster and protect. I agree that politicians have a duty to give leadership but they must also take public opinion into account and we know what it is on this issue.
The problem is that this Bill will be seen as sending a message that society regards buggery as a natural, healthy and acceptable act but I disagree totally with that. It would be irresponsible to send such a message to young people in particular at this time when AIDS is such a prevalent disease. We must safeguard our young people in their sexual development.
This liberal legislation which is being rushed through the House has been designed to soften us up for what some people see as the big event — abortion. I wish to avail of this opportunity to send a message that that is a different issue.
I would like to repeat two points I made to the Minister when this matter was discussed at a parliamentary party meeting. I ask the Minister to reconsider the age of consent proposed before tomorrow. Why do we have to set the age of consent at 17 years given that even in the United Kingdom, which many people consider to be a Godless den of iniquity, it is 21? On this issue, we need an Irish solution to an Irish problem. If the change has to be made in stages so be it.
I have my fears about what some describe as the wider agenda of the gay movement. Can the Minister produce a formula of words to prevent what is called the “further progression” of that general movement?
The contribution of the current ceann comhairle (speaker of the house) John O'Donoghue, a man who would go on to become minister for Justice is pretty funny as well.
We all accept that minorities have rights; but it is sometimes forgotten and lost in the fog of time that majorities have rights too. When both rights collide serious questions arise for legislators. In this context I ask the House to pause and think whether the decriminalisation of homosexuality is the duty of the House or whether it would in fact adversely affect future generations. Will the decriminalisation of homosexuality have grave consequences for the ethos of society? In short, what sort of society does the decriminalisation of homosexuality envisage?
It has been clear since the beginning of time that, no matter how much anybody may wish to deny it, it is an immutable part of the natural law that the will to procreate is engraved in every human being, it is part of the human spirit and to that extent, except in the case of a disorder, at best it is immutable.
Will the decriminalisation of homosexuality place the unnatural on the same platform as the natural and create an environment or an atmosphere which equates homosexuality with heterosexuality? If so, where will this lead? If the argument is accepted that homosexuality is not morally wrong is there still a basis for a law to protect youth from corruption?
But if you want a proper laugh I suggest you take the time out to examine the contribution of that mad old blueshirt cunt Brendan McGahon. It's brilliant.
Looking through some of the other contributions I see that Mary Harney wanted to have a constitutional referendum on whether the age of homosexual consent should be the same as for heterosexual consent. The full debate is here
I do not often find myself in agreement with my constituency colleague, Deputy McGahon, but on this occasion I am. Perhaps it has something to do with the atmosphere in our constituency.
A Deputy: Sellafield.
Mr. D. Ahern: I have reservations about this legislation. I have already made these views known privately to the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party and the Minister.
Reference has been made to our international obligations. However, no reference seems to have been made to the Constitution of this Republic. I wish to give some Members of the House food for thought by quoting from the Constitution. Article 40.1 states:
All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.
This shall not be held to mean that the State shall not in its enactments have due regard to differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function.
That question bears some thought. In regard to the family, Article 41.1.1º states:
The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.
Article 41.1.2º states:
The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority ...
Article 45, which outlines the directive principles of social policy, states:
The principles of social policy set forth in this Article are intended for the general guidance of the Oireachtas. The application of those principles in the making of laws shall be the care of the Oireachtas exclusively ...
Article 45.1 states:
The State shall strive to promote the welfare of the whole people by securing and protecting as effectively as it may a social order in which justice and charity shall inform all the institutions of the national life.
I am not being intolerant in my remarks. Anyone who knows me well knows that I am a very tolerant person. As legislators, we have a duty to legislate for the common good. We seem to have reached the stage where we are legislating for pressure and minority groups. We have a duty to consider what is in the common good of all the people and to legislate for that. We should not legislate for hard cases, I do not say this in any intolerant way but we should legislate for the common good.
Reference was made to our international obligations. We have a duty to legislate for the standards and norms which we regard as appropriate for the Irish people. This does not necessarily have to include all the people, but we should strive to achieve a certain standard and norm in our society. The Houses of the Oireachtas have the primary function of laying down rules for the people and the standards they should strive to achieve, and we should never forget that.
2036
I quoted from Article 41 of the Constitution which deals with the position of the family in our society. Many countries, including Britain, are now looking at why families are breaking down. The tragic murder of the young Bolger child in England led to people questioning why society is breaking down in that country. One of the reasons given for the breakdown of society is that the family unit is breaking down. We should strive to protect the family unit as the primary unit in our society. That is not to say that families do not break up — of course they do — but we should aspire to attain that. I think most Deputies would agree with those sentiments.
It was stated that we would be in breach of the charter of the European Court of Human Rights if we did not introduce legislation to implement its decision. I do not for one minute accept that we have to implement this decision. Britain has decided to derogate from the Social Charter and, in effect, from European monetary union. Yet, business is still being conducted and no one seems to have taken the British Government to task for this.
Much play is made of the word “equality”, for example, equality in regard to the age limit. I wonder if this issue will end here. Will the pressure groups which have succeeded in having this legislation brought before the House stop here? I think not. Will we eventually see the day in this country when, as has happened in the USA, homosexuals will seek the right to adopt children? We should think seriously about this possibility.
I have a problem with the age limit of 17 years. I appreciate that the Minister is endeavouring to equalise the age limits for both homosexuals and heterosexuals. However, under the child care legislation passed by this House a child is defined as anyone under the age of 18 years. We should bear this in mind.
I have a problem with the provisions on prostitution. I understood that the norm in Europe was to liberalise the laws on prostitution but——
This man is our minister for Justice. The contribution of Bertie Ahern's brother Noel is fucking priceless.
Mr. N. Ahern: I will not claim that I welcome the Bill. Indeed, it is sad that we are being forced to introduce legislation that is alien to the moral standards and ethos of many of our people. I am aware of the decision of the European Court of Human Rights and that we are a member of the Council of Europe. However, we should have sought a derogation from the ruling on grounds of the nation's welfare and morals. I heard — I do not know if this is true — that the Council of Europe granted a derogation to Liechtenstein on a similar issue.
2031
It is not an offence to be homosexual, rather it is an offence to commit buggery. That is an unnatural and unhealthy act and those who engage in it — statistics prove this — account for a disproportionate share of those who suffer from sexually transmitted diseases. Society makes laws to discourage unhealthy, unwelcome or anti-social behaviour, be it smoking, buggery, drug taking and so on. Homosexuals live a secret and lonely life in many cases and we should adopt an understanding, [2031] caring and sympathetic approach to them. The question that arises is whether the rights of the individual or the common good should be uppermost in our minds. The State has an interest in the general and moral well being of the community. Commonsense tell us therefore that it should discourage conduct which is harmful to the way of life and the values which it wishes to foster and protect. I agree that politicians have a duty to give leadership but they must also take public opinion into account and we know what it is on this issue.
The problem is that this Bill will be seen as sending a message that society regards buggery as a natural, healthy and acceptable act but I disagree totally with that. It would be irresponsible to send such a message to young people in particular at this time when AIDS is such a prevalent disease. We must safeguard our young people in their sexual development.
This liberal legislation which is being rushed through the House has been designed to soften us up for what some people see as the big event — abortion. I wish to avail of this opportunity to send a message that that is a different issue.
I would like to repeat two points I made to the Minister when this matter was discussed at a parliamentary party meeting. I ask the Minister to reconsider the age of consent proposed before tomorrow. Why do we have to set the age of consent at 17 years given that even in the United Kingdom, which many people consider to be a Godless den of iniquity, it is 21? On this issue, we need an Irish solution to an Irish problem. If the change has to be made in stages so be it.
I have my fears about what some describe as the wider agenda of the gay movement. Can the Minister produce a formula of words to prevent what is called the “further progression” of that general movement?
The contribution of the current ceann comhairle (speaker of the house) John O'Donoghue, a man who would go on to become minister for Justice is pretty funny as well.
We all accept that minorities have rights; but it is sometimes forgotten and lost in the fog of time that majorities have rights too. When both rights collide serious questions arise for legislators. In this context I ask the House to pause and think whether the decriminalisation of homosexuality is the duty of the House or whether it would in fact adversely affect future generations. Will the decriminalisation of homosexuality have grave consequences for the ethos of society? In short, what sort of society does the decriminalisation of homosexuality envisage?
It has been clear since the beginning of time that, no matter how much anybody may wish to deny it, it is an immutable part of the natural law that the will to procreate is engraved in every human being, it is part of the human spirit and to that extent, except in the case of a disorder, at best it is immutable.
Will the decriminalisation of homosexuality place the unnatural on the same platform as the natural and create an environment or an atmosphere which equates homosexuality with heterosexuality? If so, where will this lead? If the argument is accepted that homosexuality is not morally wrong is there still a basis for a law to protect youth from corruption?
But if you want a proper laugh I suggest you take the time out to examine the contribution of that mad old blueshirt cunt Brendan McGahon. It's brilliant.
Looking through some of the other contributions I see that Mary Harney wanted to have a constitutional referendum on whether the age of homosexual consent should be the same as for heterosexual consent. The full debate is here
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