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Do universities belong in humanity?

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    Do universities belong in humanity?

    Universities had their basis as places of learning because they were the secure places, often in monasteries, where libraries containing the material for learning could be housed, and also places where essential teaching could be delivered, in lectures, by experts in particular fields to interested students.

    No alternative model of learning was possible in those days than simply "being there".

    It could surely be argued that now that virtually all printed material is (or could be made) available on-line, and so too the wit and wisdom of any given professors, why are "universities" necessary anymore except as daycare centres for parents to send their late teens so they can enjoy those wonderfully cheap term-time holiday deals in Tuscany and California?

    Couldn't many 21-year-olds graduate perfectly well while living at home, after 3 years study via the internet, nowadays? With the possible exceptions of the ones who need to cut up dead bodies or blow things up?

    #2
    Do universities belong in humanity?

    This has occurred to people in the Biz, I assure you. And to people who fund us.

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      #3
      Do universities belong in humanity?

      Too true. In some places teachers are currently graduating via distance learning. They have no classroom experience beyond their own days in high school. No modeling via professors or instructors at university, no internships, no practice at all in fact. How do you think they'll do in front of room full of thirteen-year olds? And what quality of education do you reckon the kids in their classes will get as a result?

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        #4
        Do universities belong in humanity?

        Developing human capital almost always involves rubbing elbows. To the extent that education is about socialization and about learning techniques of inquiry (and most undergraduate programs are about both), you need to be physically present

        There are some types of professional degrees that are "only" about demonstating mastery of a particular corpus of knowledge. Those you can probably do internet-based. But for broad undergraduate studies? Never.

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          #5
          Do universities belong in humanity?

          I have been at a school where I have been able to use video recordings of lectures online, in lieu of going to classes. It is nowhere near there yet (and we had some of the more advanced echo 360 technology for slide synching, fast forwarding and other elements).

          The social aspect is a huge amount of learning as part of a course to my mind.

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            #6
            Do universities belong in humanity?

            God I remember being part of a team trying to build one of the first 'online' universities in the late 90s, "Virt-U".

            It was an awful, awful experience. Mainly cutting and pasting lots and lots of Word documents into HTML pages, because no-one knew how to configure a CMS at the place I worked (and the CMS' that were available were all shit).

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              #7
              Do universities belong in humanity?

              A fair few lecturers in our Uni have stopped using the virtual learning site that we use as students just aren't turning up to lectures.

              Blowing my own trumpet a minute, we are, at the moment, going over a lot of stuff that I know already (education and religion) and I still wouldn't want to miss any of the lectures or seminars.

              I am also finding the peer support and group work essential

              A girl I know was going to the degree on the OU but I persuaded her to come to Uni. I will ask her if, after four weeks, she feels she made the right decision

              I feel that all "virtual learning" would be like replacing all the cashiers at Sainsburys with self-service machines

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                #8
                Do universities belong in humanity?

                I've been following MIT's freshman physics lectures online. They've got a huge amount of course material at this site.

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                  #9
                  Do universities belong in humanity?

                  A side issue, but we are increasingly seeing students recording the lecture on their phones and settling in for a 45-minute kip rather than taking notes. And that's the ones who turn up.

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                    #10
                    Do universities belong in humanity?

                    If I am going to lecture that has powerpoint that is downloadable and a seminar after to discuss it, I am taking very few notes and, if I am, it is to chase up ideas that have popped into my head.

                    Having said that, I am attending, awake and paying a lot of attention to the actual lecture. I missed one lecture last week due to a breakdown childcare and it pissed me off. Not as much, however, as running around like a blue-arsed fly between Uni and wherever Bored Jr is only to hear 18 year olds saying they couldn't be bothered to go to a lecture when we are a month in.

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                      #11
                      Do universities belong in humanity?

                      I am taking very few notes and, if I am, it is to chase up ideas that have popped into my head.

                      Me too, I rarely if ever take notes it gets in the way of listening/thinking. I'm amazed when I see people scribbling away furiously throughout class.

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                        #12
                        Do universities belong in humanity?

                        I'd say that at least 80% of my degree will be done outside of a brick university (the biggest Uni in the UK, too), and I'll spend a total of two weeks on campus.

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                          #13
                          Do universities belong in humanity?

                          Bored of Education wrote:
                          A fair few lecturers in our Uni have stopped using the virtual learning site that we use as students just aren't turning up to lectures.
                          This is a lecturers straw man. So few people watch the videos, or choose not to go because they will watch the video. Maybe the video facilitates the decision to skip class, and sometimes people have a lot of work on.

                          But most of the time, the reason half the class isn't there has nothing to do with the video, and a lot to do with the lecturer being crap.

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                            #14
                            Do universities belong in humanity?

                            How is that a straw man?

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                              #15
                              Do universities belong in humanity?

                              The video is the source of my classroom being empty, rather than the classroom being empty because my lectures are crap. Diversion from, and denial of, the real problem.

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                                #16
                                Do universities belong in humanity?

                                But BoE's post makes no claim for the underlying reason people aren't going. It simply says that the video has become so popular that people have stopped going to the lecture; therefor, they've cancelled the video component. Which is a bit odd. I mean, if a component of a program grows in popularity, you might look to bolster it rather than cancel it. Unless, of course, the lecture is interactive in some way and is now suffering in quality due to dropping participation. Which I doubt is the case if my lecture-going days were any indication.

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                                  #17
                                  Do universities belong in humanity?

                                  A straw man is when you argue against a position your opponents don't actually hold, but that's easier to demolish than the one they do. It's a particular kind of diversion, and it's no kind of denial.

                                  I'm not convinced you're right, in any case. I think attendances at those of my lectures that clash with assessment deadlines on other courses have dipped since I started using the VLE to distribute handouts, whereas I suspect the standard of those lectures has remained steady or perhaps, through honing, actually gone up.

                                  In fact, a "good" lecturer (in the sense of a lecturer that students rate highly) can create a false sense of security, I think, meaning some students can convince themselves they're more on top of the material than they really are, and hence risk missing the odd lecture. I think this is unwise, since even if you don't ask questions, it's only at lectures that you get to see, for example, problems being worked through in real time. But it's probably not catastrophic if you really do catch up. In themselves, lectures are a bit overrated (though for pacing, structuring and disciplining the content, they work well).

                                  This is one of several ways in which "good" meaning "highly rated by students" doesn't necessarily mean the same as "good" meaning "highly effective". I feel this a lot because I'm a bit of a crowd-pleaser, without this really translating to fantastic exam results for the undergrads. Which is frustrating, not least for them.

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                                    #18
                                    Do universities belong in humanity?

                                    My error - apologies. I kind of feel class size is down ---> kill video lectures, versus looking at the true problem (be it student apathy or lecturing weakness) broadly fits in the scope. Being early in the day I didn't explain myself well.

                                    I have only skipped class for work reasons once (with a serious monetary trade-off based on a fellowship and bad editing work) and maybe one or two for recruitment. The presence of a video was neither here nor there. Maybe a graduate environment, where personal investment is high, or the US fees system change the behavior a little bit from the UK.

                                    The student complacency due to good lecturing is an interesting point. It does raise that absence isn't the best indicator of poor performance, or weakness in the class (too slow for example). That said, I think the removal of video will do little to change things, and could harm in the long run (going back with notes to lectures attended to clarify what is on the note pad, for example).

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                                      #19
                                      Do universities belong in humanity?

                                      This is one of several ways in which "good" meaning "highly rated by students" doesn't necessarily mean the same as "good" meaning "highly effective". I feel this a lot because I'm a bit of a crowd-pleaser, without this really translating to fantastic exam results for the undergrads. Which is frustrating, not least for them.

                                      This is an important point. There are no exams in any programs I've taken in the past. And I set and mark the exams in the courses I teach myself. Beyond student evaluations — which, as you say, measure popularity more than effectiveness — the only peer assessment I've ever received in twelve years, is eleven years ago at the college where I still teach. Publications are peer reviewed of course but other than that there appears to be no objective method of evaluating my, or any other teacher's, capability. This is not a satisfactory state of affairs.

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                                        #20
                                        Do universities belong in humanity?

                                        Student evaluations are presumably some kind of judgement about how good students feel while in the class. Now assuming they are all there because they want to master the material at hand (a big assumption, I know), then basically the evaluation is combination of "am I learning what I need/want to learn in this class" and "am I getting a better sense of self-worth in this class"?

                                        The "popularity contest", as you put it, is usually seen as legitimate if the professor is getting information across well, and illegitimate if the professor is tweaking feelings of self worth through giving out easy marks. The former you want to encourage, the latter can be reasonably easily corrected for in the evaluation process by controlling for grades awarded when examining student course evaluation results.

                                        It's not foolproof, but it's better than what most places do now.

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                                          #21
                                          Do universities belong in humanity?

                                          It's exactly what most places--all places--do now in UK higher ed. And I think you're gilding it a bit (speaking, if I may blow my own trumpet, as someone who always scores well on these things).

                                          In my subject at least, you don't know if you're learning until you do some problems. And unless Lecturer A is more effective by that standard than Lecturer B, in what sense is he or she "better"?

                                          Trouble is, exam scores don't really work either, because (a) cohorts vary year on year; (b) exam questions are mostly routine, and a poor test of understanding; (c) we set the bloody questions anyway; (d) all of the above.

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                                            #22
                                            Do universities belong in humanity?

                                            Well, but you set problems during the year before the exam, don't you? Students do have a sense going along whether they can understand the material or not, and they'll know whether or not they found the professor helpful in figuring stuff out. And no, they may not have an exact comparative frame of reference (no one else is teaching them that exact material) but they do know from other courses whether professors *can* be helpful in mastering particular material. And they implicitly judge you against that standard.

                                            Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your point.

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                                              #23
                                              Do universities belong in humanity?

                                              The thing is AG you have to take into consideration the context of student evaluations. In my experience they're done during the last class of the semester, or year. Students are emotionally raw, they're likely to be tired and just relieved/happy it's over. This does not predispose them to objective assessment. They're also aware their final assignment/exam may not yet have been marked. In spite of theoretical anonymity of evaluations, they may believe that the instructor will be able to figure out who they are (and in a small class they'd be correct IME.) That too conditions their responses.

                                              You also have to consider the evaluation form itself. If it's a "grade though 1–5 when 1 is excellent and 5 is poor" kind of deal, with tickable boxes that can be electronically read, you can bet your life that a percentage of respondents will assume that five is excellent.

                                              Finally the evaluation process reinforces the notion of student as consumer. They can reward the prof who entertains them — as WoE has noted — and punish the one who, in their judgement, gives them poor marks. It would be the easiest thing in the world to manufacture glowing evaluations to avoid this. You give everyone who shows up regularly an 'A,' and on the day the forms are filled in you do something out of the ordinary. For instance my second year students go on a field trip to a publisher and large printing house, they always love it and if if the evals were completed that day they would undoubtedly reflect that.

                                              In reality the process is pretty much a waste of time and even deceptive. Students believe their comments are noted but it's rarely the case. In any case ineffective instructors are spotted by a half-way decent program director long before evaluations happen. The best way the program, has of monitoring effectiveness is by staying in touch with graduates. After six months to a year send them a questionnaire or invite them to a meeting, only then will you get the straight goods.

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