'The intelligentsia against the poor'

[E10 Rifle]

Interesting piece by David Edgar here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/24/revolution-1989-1979

There's a few over-egged puddings in there, but quite a lot worth discussing also, and it's probably better done here than on the maddening comment is free threads themselves. Any thoughts?

[Anton Gramscescu]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

I had no idea Burnley's left-back was a Guardian reader, let alone an op-ed contributor.

[Ginger Yellow]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

The LRB had an article on a similar topic recently, based on a report by the Runnymede Trust, arguing that the intellectual left's current focus on anti-discrimination has been to the detriment of economic egalitarianism. Again, there's a lot of maddening stuff there, such as this, which is something I'd fundamentally disagree with:

My point is not that anti-racism and anti-sexism are not good things. It is rather that they currently have nothing to do with left-wing politics...

I also think the author of the article bases his argument too much on the specifics of the US experience, where class politics is more or less taboo, while ignoring the UK context of the report (and the article's locus of publication, for that matter). But the subject is worth discussion.

[wingco]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

It's an interesting but strange piece, full of lots of prefacing and throat-clearing, before it reaches the starting line of its premise . . . and then concludes. Maybe that's the point, to raise the subject rather than tackle it but it is a bit "something must be done".

I suppose the thing about gender/identity politics is that they are relatively easy to fasten onto because progress is being made, albeit slowly and with a way to go, in these areas. Each successive generation is that bit less racist, that much less homophobic, overall.

The same can't be said for economic inequality, which, if anything, is getting wider. One way to go would be to develop a primary narrative prioritising these basic, bread and butter issues which unites all disaffected parties and let the other stuff take care of itself, rather than expend eye-catching but futile energy pushing behind the politics of identity, etc, a car that's already trundling nicely downhill under its own momentum.

[Bored Of Education]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

It is painted in strokes that are too broad, that article.

Thatcherism itself would not have been successful if large parts of the working class didn't agree with its basic tenets.

Equally, while the recent revolutions in Eastern Europe may be along the lines thae article is pointing out, the movements in Venezuela, Chile and Bolivia, while not strictly revolutions, are very much based in the working class left

I agree with him about the lack of revolutionary beards, a trend I am sad about.

Equally, I was aware of his verbosity in his radio commentaries, quoting Shakespeare about Man City and whatnot, but did not realise that Stuart Hall invented the "Thatcheriem". Was it during an "It's a Knockout" I missed

[Spearmint Rhino]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

I'm reading this now, a few paragraphs in, and my initial reaction is: fuck me, what a terrible piece of writing!

The first paragraph reminds me of that nonsensical wartime nostalgia bit in The Day Today ("Today is the anniversary of 1944..."), and the second para threw me, because "fundamental political sea change" isn't exactly a snappy or popular phrase, so it took me a while to work out which phrase this Stuart Hall bloke had coined.

Anyway, I shall plough on.

[Bored Of Education]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

Each successive generation is that bit less racist, that much less homophobic, overall

I hope you're right, wingco. You certainly with regards the left uniting behind a primary narrative (if I am reading you right) but was always thus that the Left navel-gazed and argued amongst itself on the minutiae and, while its attention was turned, the right were winning.

In Britain, it has only really been our relationship to Europe that has really split the right in any major way, hasn't it?

[E10 Rifle]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

I'm not so bothered about the writing - the old-Marxism Today were always a bit too in love with their own alleged cutting-edge-ness to write that clearly - more the issues thrown up (and which don't really land anywhere clear-cut), that are worthy of discussion.

That the poor have less of an organised political voice than for some time is fairly obvious though, I'd have thought.

[Spearmint Rhino]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

It's getting better.

(The article, I mean, not the situation.)

[Spearmint Rhino]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

Alright, here's what I think.

1) He's got a point about the "sedimentation of the fault line".

However...

2) Any country in which 'the intelligentsia' and 'the poor' are discrete groups is probably already fucked beyond repair.

And...

3) Edgar actually reveals more than he probably intends about his own assumptions when he posits them as discrete groups.

And furthermore...

4) It's an incredibly pessimistic, and somewhat patronising view of the poor which assumes that they always have had, and always will have retrogressive views on issues like feminism, multiculturalism and so on. And actually an inaccurate one, as he would find if he looked a little more closely at many of the revolutions he lists.

[E10 Rifle]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

I'm not sure he's actually saying that re 4) though.

I agree with you on 3) though. He brushes that aside in Iran in particular, where some of the most notable victims of Ahmedinejad's authoritarianism have been striking bus drivers and the like.

[Bored Of Education]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

E10, You only have to look at Bob Crowe to realise that unions that are truly representing their workers are the last real voice on a national scale and, not only is their power diminished, but union workers are a small percentage of the working class, obviously.

AS I have mentioned here before or, I am sure, someone else has, the other potential working class voices are Independent Working Class Associations that have been formed to counter community action by the BNP etc but I am not sure how effective they are.

[Bored Of Education]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

3) Edgar actually reveals more than he probably intends about his own assumptions when he posits them as discrete groups.

Agreed.

[Tubby Isaacs]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

Bob Crow may be an admirable figure and I appreciate not everyone in the RMT is a train driver, but he's not directly representing what we normally mean by the poor. I don't know if anyone has ever represented people on means tested benefits in a union-style way- Alan Clark refers to a claimants union (which predictably he doesn't like, though he prefers them to farmers) but don't know what else there's been in that line.

There's hardly likely to be all that much overlap between the poor and the intelligentsia, is there? One usually has little education, the other a lot. As for autodidacticism, I've done a lot of adult education classes and hardly come across anyone who looked poor. That doesn't rule out reading at home, of course, but it certainly doesn't help.

[E10 Rifle]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

The reason Crow doesn't represent large numbers of what we might call 'the poor' is to a considerable extent due to the fact that he and his union are so good at defending their members' pay and conditions. Which is surely the point.

Although actually there's a lot of poorly-paid contracted-out cleaners in the RMT, who've had various disputes in the past couple of years on the Tube.

Though we're possibly moving off on a tangent here.

[delicatemoth]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

If by 'intelligentsia' Edgar means 'cultural commentators' - which is how it reads to me, though his writing is rather unclear - then I doubt there's much overlap between the two.

Yesterday a few of us who have had some challenging times with the benefits system were discussing the overwhelmingly negative portrayal of welfare claimants - and the poor in general - in the media, which New Labour seems to be increasingly in line with (James fucking Parnell). So if that's what he means, I agree. But it's genuinely hard to tell.

[Bored Of Education]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

There's hardly likely to be all that much overlap between the poor and the intelligentsia, is there? One usually has little education, the other a lot. As for autodidacticism, I've done a lot of adult education classes and hardly come across anyone who looked poor

On my access course, there were quite a lot of single Mums and not well-off mature students. Indeed, it is designed for such.

Unfortunately, a couple of students had to drop out because their quite meager grants weren't coming in on time

[Bored Of Education]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

Yesterday a few of us who have had some challenging times with the benefits system were discussing the overwhelmingly negative portrayal of welfare claimants - and the poor in general - in the media, which New Labour seems to be increasingly in line with (James fucking Parnell). So if that's what he means, I agree. But it's genuinely hard to tell.

I would point you in the direction of indepth BBC documentary Saints And Scroungers which balances three or four stories of "benefit cheats" with one story of someone who deserves their benefits. In the one I saw, there was no mention of it being estimated that there is more unclaimed fraud than benefit fraud.

As it is in the "Jeremy Kyle" slot, I am sure you can imagine what sort of times it takes.

[Tubby Isaacs]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

I think that statistic has a lot to do with OAPs who don't claim the means tested extra pension. And also, I expect, tax credits go unclaimed. So it isn't really that much to do with people regarded as undeserving poor. But income tax evasion and insurance fraud do cost more than benefit fraud, I think, a fact that doesn't get much publicity.

I don't know if completing an access course makes you a member of what we normally call the intelligentsia. No question that it's a very important course, at a key stage in the student's life, but you'd probably have to do more to be considered as such. For me the word makes me think of someone who goes to Ruskin College and takes a degree.

[Reed John]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

Wasn't Dave Edgar the lead singer of The English Beat and General Public? Why do I think that?

Anyway, carry on.

[WOM]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

You're thinking of the perennially youthful Dave Wakeling.

[Reed John]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

Thanks for setting me straight on that.

[WOM]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

It's what gets me out of bed in the morning.

[Reed John]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

Thank God for that.

Now I've got a "Tenderness" earworm. I'm trying to switch it to "Mirror in the Bathroom" but no luck so far.

[WOM]

'The intelligentsia against the poor'

Mirror in the Bathroom would be my first posting if I ever started a thread in Music called "Bands whose shittest song is their most well-known". See also: Our House by Madness.