Will women never learn?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Still earning 22% less than men on median earnings:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/jul/29/gender-pay-divide-women-inequality

The figure has all the hallmarks of being one that defenders of the status quo can shoot bits off the side- it doesn't seem to take into account pensions, for example.

But it's clearly dreadful. And the secondary finding that gender stereotypes among the under 14s are getting worse is scary too. I think we need some more of those anti-family books the Express was so good at finding in the 80s.

[Guest]

Will women never learn?

Covered on the radio yesterday.

Part of the problem is women tend to gravitate towards part-time jobs or those in traditionally low-paid industries, mainly for childcare and caring/family reasons.

Oh and because men designed and mainly operate the financial & 'wealth creation' systems....

[Ginger Yellow]

Will women never learn?

I don't quite understand your pension point, Tubby. Surely men are likely to have higher pensions on average, having been in the workplace en masse for longer, at a time when defined benefit pensions were the norm, and in more jobs with occupational pensions?

[thom]

Will women never learn?

Hold on a moment.

Are women earning 22% less than men for the same job, or is it that the average female salary is 22% less than the average male salary?

The former is clearer discrimination, plain and simple. Whatever the figure, if it's not 0%, then something should be done.

The latter scenario is more complex. There may be reasons why women gravitate towards jobs that lower pay. Not because those jobs have lower pay, but perhaps those careers that attract more women than men happen also to be lower paid. Primary teachers earn less than secondary teachers, for example. (The part-time issue is not explained enough in the article, but may also contribute.)

Within a capitalist system, biological facts may have economic consequences. For example, people with higher testosterone may achieve higher wages (even after controlling for sex). In fact, that wouldn't surprise me at all - but we wouldn't want to say that, in the name of equality, average wages should be the same regardless of testosterone levels. (Well, we might, but that's then a question about our economic system.)

What should be equal is access to high-paying jobs - and I would entirely agree that at the moment it's not. But that's not what this figure reveals.

I'm not saying that one sex earning less than the other on average is desirable or even ok - but neither is it immediately clear that the averages should necessarily be equal.

[Ginger Yellow]

Will women never learn?

Thom, it's just the relative median pay.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Will women never learn?

GY, I'm not sure how pensions would work. There are lots of women in public sector jobs, but I suppose there are men as well. It's just I don't have huge confidence in something which doesn't mention pensions, given that they are/should be deferred wages.