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    Losing interest...

    Perhaps we should discuss this low testosterone issue that AdC brought up sort of on that other thread. Much to my surprise, I recently discovered that my testosterone levels are on the "low" end, although none of the female hormones are above normal for a man so I guess I'm not quite a man but not not a man either. I'm just an empty shell or something.

    While it's common for testosterone to trail off over time, it's a bit early for me (35). I'm not sure if its really a problem. Why would I want testosterone? So I can get into fights? So I can want to have sex with women I'll never have sex with even more than I do now?

    Then again, it may be part of the cause of my depression, insomnia and weight problems, so my shrink is concerned and wants me to follow up with my internist.

    Today I read that non-fat diets lower testosterone. I don't eat a lot of fat. I've tended to eat way too many carbohydrates (although I've been cutting way back as of late), but not much fat. Perhaps that's part of the problem.

    Does anyone know any more about this?

    #2
    Losing interest...

    So I can want to have sex with women I'll never have sex with even more than I do now?

    Well you never know, you may get lucky.

    Low testosterone can certainly be a factor in chronic depression, irritability, weight gain, fatigue and — last but not least — low libido. I've had recurring bouts of depression, fluctuating weight, and extended periods of fatigue for many, many years, but I had never had my testosterone level checked until last week. Even then it was only done because I'm about to go on this five-day hike in Yorkshire and Carolyn's doctor suggested testosterone cream would improve my stamina. My doctor agreed, but said he'd better get a baseline so sent me for tests. Well turns out I'm almost off the bottom of the chart "not really unusual for someone your age" he said "well what's yours then eh? ...eh?" I retorted (I didn't really.) In a sense it's reassuring, I've been trying to deal with the blues, the weight and the tiredness as inter-related but, essentially separate issues. If they're not and there's a treatable physical cause it's good news. Exercise is also key though, by itself it raises testosterone levels, so for the past couple of weeks I've been trying to maintain a 3-10 mile a day walking regimen. I hope to suatain it after I get back from the UK.

    Eating more fat is likely to increase cholesterol isn't it. Surely not a good thing.

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      #3
      Losing interest...

      Well, you can die like a lion or live like a mouse.

      Thing is...

      I sometimes think that regardless of what the pamphlets say, reducing libido is actually a primary effect rather than a side-effect of anti-depressants since being on the frustrated side of unequal sex-drives can be a major contributory cause of depression.

      I'm not even going to bother pretending I read that somewhere. Just trust me, all right?

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        #4
        Losing interest...

        I don't know about the other stuff Reed, but for the diet, you can (and should) eat a lot of things with good fats, like salmon, avocadoes, nuts, olive oil and so forth. And a little bit of cheese has never hurt anyone.

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          #5
          Losing interest...

          I've also got high cholesterol, so I need to work on that too. I know about the "good fats" business, but don't really know how work that in.

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            #6
            Losing interest...

            And a little bit of cheese has never hurt anyone.
            Will Mr Ad Hoc please report to reception.

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              #7
              Losing interest...

              I sometimes think that regardless of what the pamphlets say, reducing libido is actually a primary effect rather than a side-effect of anti-depressants since being on the frustrated side of unequal sex-drives can be a major contributory cause of depression.
              But what if you were already on the other side? I suppose that means you have to somehow persuade the other person to go on them too.

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                #8
                Losing interest...

                Like you say, what's the point of all that testosterone, anyway? So you can get into a fight, or a rutting frenzy? Surely being a bit light on testosterone frees up your mind to enjoy the higher, more cultural of life's delights?

                Our rabbit's at the vet's today, to have his testosterone levels reduced in a very permanent manner, if you get my drift.

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                  #9
                  Losing interest...

                  It's a really difficult set of questions philosophically, I think, falling into the general category of "What do we desire our desires to be"?

                  Bernard Williams (the nonexistent God rest his nonexistent soul) wrote about this a bit in his last one. As a first-order response, when we have desires, we wish and seek to fulfil them, not to remove them. By the same token, when we lack certain desires, the first-order response to that is simply not to pursue those particular ends, rather than to see to it that we start having those desires.

                  But there have always been those second-order questions. For a long time, they were posed almost exclusively in a religious context, often in the form of prayer ("Lord, make me..."). Then there was a profound cultural shift starting in the last century, when for the first time our desires began to be seen (prematurely, really, given the state of psychotherapy at the time) as things that were fixable through some sort of intervention. This depended on the new-fangled notion that the mind was a kind of organ, and that having the wrong set of desires (in some sense) therefore came under the heading of health problems.

                  I this this is a really vexed and (almost literally) maddening area. Once you ask yourself "What do I want to want?", it's far from clear where to stop. For example, I share with a lot of men I know a superabundance of sexual desire over actual sexual activity, but I worry for these reasons about going down the road of wishing this away. There's a lot to be said, in this respect, for working with the hand (ha ha!) you've been dealt. Except in extreme circumstances, that threaten to disorder ones life or mind, or someone else's.

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                    #10
                    Losing interest...

                    Once you ask yourself "What do I want to want?", it's far from clear where to stop.
                    Some people tell me things like 'if life hands you lemons, make lemonade' and so on; ie they seem to be able to be happy with what they have, content to live with the things they can't change, able to appreciate the good things, etc. I always say that I wish I could be like that - but I also know that I am reluctant to let go of the wishing for things that I don't have which makes me miserable. And also that I seem incapable of doing anything that might actually achieve some of them, the possible ones that is. It's a kind of bouncing around this triangle that I can't get out of.

                    Really I don't want to want different things, but also, I do want to want different things. No idea how to find a way out of that one.

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                      #11
                      Losing interest...

                      Lyra wrote:
                      Some people tell me things like 'if life hands you lemons, make lemonade'...
                      Really? The tossers.

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                        #12
                        Losing interest...

                        yeah I seem to get a lot of the "there's people living in extreme poverty you know, you ought to be grateful" stuff. I must sound really whiny and self-pitying. I do wish that people would understand that adding to the guilt someone feels is not likely to help, though.

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                          #13
                          Losing interest...

                          But there is a lot also of "why don't you do something about it" stuff that I often see people saying to others, not just me. There's a lack of understanding of how being depressed can paralyse you, maybe.

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                            #14
                            Losing interest...

                            Wyatt Earp wrote:
                            Lyra wrote:
                            Some people tell me things like 'if life hands you lemons, make lemonade'...
                            Really? The tossers.
                            Quite. You should use them to add to a gin and tonic...

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                              #15
                              Losing interest...

                              That is SO MUCH better GO. I shall say that next time.

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                                #16
                                Losing interest...

                                True dat.

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                                  #17
                                  Losing interest...

                                  at work I'm right now watching a programme about how witnessing certain things at a young age *changes a child's brain*, it affects the actual physical development of the brain!

                                  while it may not help to be absolved of responsibility for feelings in this way, it also, actually, does help.

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                                    #18
                                    Losing interest...

                                    Well, at some level experience must have a physical effect on the brain, surely? Every mental circumstance has a physical manifestation. Is the point simply that this effect is starker and grosser than one might think?

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                                      #19
                                      Losing interest...

                                      The point they're making is that witnessing violence seems to lead to mental health problems "at a higher rate" than experiencing being the victim of violence directly.

                                      I see what you mean in that if thoughts are chemical or electrical processes then everything is material. Which is also quite comforting. It reminds me of my thing about how all we really are is emptiness and force fields.

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                                        #20
                                        Losing interest...

                                        In a sense. In a certain very particular sense.

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                                          #21
                                          Losing interest...

                                          umm... "form is emptiness; emptiness is form" if you're gonna get all zen about it...

                                          Wasn't there an experiment that was done on monkeys which proved that that the same area of the brain involved in a particular activity fires even when the subject is only watching others perform the activity?

                                          So, the brain-wave patterns for sexual-activity were identical whether the monkey was having sex or just watching other monkeys have sex.

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                                            #22
                                            Losing interest...

                                            They can't be identical, because the sensorimotor stuff's going to be different for a start.

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                                              #23
                                              Losing interest...

                                              Well, I think the point was you get a saccade (if that's the right term?) of neurons firing, which originate from the same location in the brain, in both scenarios.

                                              But the rest of the brain will be doing completely different things. Like controlling motor-functions, as you say.

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