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    #51
    "Northern Britain"

    sw2boro wrote:
    Thing is, I take the point that North Britain/Briton" is meant to be mildly insulting, but it shouldn't be, surely?

    The term implies a unity of Britishness, so as someone who is technically English, although I don't identify as such, if someone called me a South Briton, I might think it a bit weird, but couldn't take offence. I suppose the point is no-one ever refers to South Britain.

    I do remember someone once making the point that England & Scotland are really very rubbish identifiers & that the Northern English and Sourthern Scottish have so much more in common with each other, genetically, ethnically, historically & economically than they do with the other halves of their "proper" nations that they'd be better off throwing in their lot together.

    But maybe that's a load of blethers.
    I wouldn't be offended if somebody called me British but I would certainly correct them. I can't imagine it happening though. Over here, British is English.

    Comment


      #52
      "Northern Britain"

      AMMS wrote:
      I've been known to use the term North British when nationalist baiting, it's a surprisingly good lure. I've a friend who still pulls me up whenever we now meet and it must be 15 years since I mentioned it too him.

      As it looks like the direction the thread is heading I'll point out that I've no idea the difference between the Scots and the English (or the Irish or Welsh for that matter) and I'd be very interested in hearing what they apparently are?
      You'd never guess he was a Rangers fan.

      Just out of interest, if Australians were added to your list, what differences would you come up with?

      Comment


        #53
        "Northern Britain"

        Melbourne Arab wrote:
        Just out of interest, if Australians were added to your list, what differences would you come up with?
        1). A yen for disgusting yeast based foodstuffs.
        2). Bizarrely small, girly-sized beers.
        3). Claiming Morant was innocent.
        4). That annoying verbal tic that makes every sentence sound like it's a QUESTION?

        Even? When? Y'know? It's? Not? A? QUESTION?

        (I was told this is a relatively recent affectation of youth, that bugs the shit out of older Australians just as much as Brits).

        Edit: Oh, and I had a Violet Crumble bar in a "British" pub in Half Moon Bay, California, once.

        ONCE.

        "Oooh. Australian Crunchie!", thinks I.

        Not a fucking Crunchie, I'll tell you now.

        Comment


          #54
          "Northern Britain"

          Can somebody tell me why, in 10 years of asking, I have yet to meet a single person amongst the heaving throngs of proud "-/Americans" (German, Swedish, Vietnamese, Luxemburgish(!), Irish, Portuguese... you name it), that will claim to be British-American or English-American.

          Scottish- occasionally, an Irish- to ludicrous extremes, but Welsh- seems to have fallen off the map. As for English- , well...

          I mean, I must have heard every possible nationality as claimed prefix-American heritage (plus every regional prefix for the sub-continent, say) but there seems to be a real reluctance to claim a British heritage.

          Not sure about back East, but this is certainly so in Northern California.

          It does vex me somewhat.

          Comment


            #55
            "Northern Britain"

            Reed of the Valley People wrote:
            Are there any people that get upset that the country is called Great Britain even though most people in Britain, and certainly most of the people who have run Britain over ther years, are more closely related to the Angles, the Saxon and, er, umm, the Franks, I guess, than they are to the original Britons who, as I recall, were a branch of Celts
            Well, since the decline of their dubious empire 50 or so years ago, 'mediocre' Britain would be more apt....

            Comment


              #56
              "Northern Britain"

              If we're talking about eating/drinking habits and accents then the differences between the Scots, English, Welsh and Irish are huge.

              I hate the word "brits." It seems to be a very recent phenomenon – who the hell started it? I reckon it's a unionist plot.

              It has been explained to me that chocolate bars taste different here because the ingredients are changed slightly so it doesn't melt so easily.

              Comment


                #57
                "Northern Britain"

                TheFourMarys wrote:
                Melbourne Arab wrote:
                Just out of interest, if Australians were added to your list, what differences would you come up with?
                1). A yen for disgusting yeast based foodstuffs.
                2). Bizarrely small, girly-sized beers.
                3). Claiming Morant was innocent.
                4). That annoying verbal tic that makes every sentence sound like it's a QUESTION?

                Even? When? Y'know? It's? Not? A? QUESTION?

                (I was told this is a relatively recent affectation of youth, that bugs the shit out of older Australians just as much as Brits).

                Edit: Oh, and I had a Violet Crumble bar in a "British" pub in Half Moon Bay, California, once.

                ONCE.

                "Oooh. Australian Crunchie!", thinks I.

                Not a fucking Crunchie, I'll tell you now.
                That rising inflection thing on the end of sentences, which makes them sound like questions, is actually an old Australian verbal trait which is not nearly as common as it used to be years ago. It used to be more of a female trait than male, and was probably down to lack of self confidence amongst women because of their downtrodden position in Australian society!

                Younger Australians don't seem to do it so much; in fact these days Australians under 25 speak with a bizarre hybird accent which doesn't much resemble the old Australian accent- it is sort of like an amalgamation of Australian, NZ, British and American all rolled into one accent!

                Comment


                  #58
                  "Northern Britain"

                  British-American or English-American.
                  All of those hyphenated identities came about in reaction to their mistreatment from the dominant white culture. English-Americans were, in general, accepted into that dominant white group so they didn't call themselves Anglo-Americans. They thought of themselves as the Real Americans.

                  It wasn't that long ago when people of British heritage, a certain class and, um, disposition would be happy to let you know that their ancestors came over on the Mayflower or fought in the American Revolution. These were usually snotty, wealthy Easterners, also known, somewhat derisively, as WASPs (white anglo saxon protestants).

                  But since at least the 1980s and probably further back, advertising oneself as English-American would be like calling oneself a WASP and therefore part of the ruling class. I don't know too many people that are comfortable with, let alone proud of, having been born with so many advantages in life. Except George W., of course, and his friends. But I don't hang with people like that.

                  My mom's side of the family traces its ancestry to England. In fact, we're pretty sure that we have an ancestor that was on the Mayflower. But we would never want to call ourselves WASPs, even though that is strictly true. My great-great-grandfather was a man of some power and money, but most of that got pissed away in the succeeding generations. Besides, they were from Ohio so not part of the Eastern Establishment.

                  My dad's side of the family is all from Germany. You don't hear people call themselves German-Americans very often either. Partly because there's just so many of us and partly because the wars led many of our ancestors to change their names and drop that identity.

                  We're in contact with some of our German relatives, so I feel some connection there and because of films, music, sports, my taste in beverages and OTF, I feel a lot of cultural connection to England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Canada and Australia.

                  But I just think of myself as primarily a person, secondly a white person from Pennsylvania whose family is from Cincinnati, and thirdly a northern person, fourthly an American and maybe fifth the German and English bits.

                  Comment


                    #59
                    "Northern Britain"

                    George at asda wrote:
                    A few years ago BBC2 did a series documenting the genetic makeup of Britain.

                    For one of the programmes the cameras visited a Lowland Scottish village and took swab tests of the locals for DNA analysis. Most of the villagers on being interviewed proudly proclaimed themselves as being Celts and were a bit sniffy about the English.

                    When the results came back a few months later there descendants were proven to be overwhelmingly Anglo-Saxon.

                    There faces spoke of crushing disappointment
                    I remember watching that, and the reactions of some of the participants were cringeworthy. There was one lady who worked for some society which promoted Anglo-Saxon heritage- in particular the Battle of Hastings- and claimed to be able to trace her pure AS lineage back to that time period.

                    The genetic results proved otherwise, that she was just as much of a mongrel as the rest of us. The program ended with the announcement that she was threatening legal action against the program makers.

                    Comment


                      #60
                      "Northern Britain"

                      Melbourne Arab wrote:
                      AMMS wrote:
                      I've been known to use the term North British when nationalist baiting, it's a surprisingly good lure. I've a friend who still pulls me up whenever we now meet and it must be 15 years since I mentioned it too him.

                      As it looks like the direction the thread is heading I'll point out that I've no idea the difference between the Scots and the English (or the Irish or Welsh for that matter) and I'd be very interested in hearing what they apparently are?
                      You'd never guess he was a Rangers fan.

                      Just out of interest, if Australians were added to your list, what differences would you come up with?
                      Come, come MA you have to stop seeing everyone as a football fan first, it's just such a Scottish thing to do....

                      Not many to be honest. I lived in Australia for a year and it was whilst there I came to the conclusion we were all pretty much the same. Being an overwhelmingly immigrant country that has given it certain characteristics less prevalent here but beyond that I felt it was very familiar.

                      Comment


                        #61
                        "Northern Britain"

                        AMMS wrote:
                        As it looks like the direction the thread is heading I'll point out that I've no idea the difference between the Scots and the English (or the Irish or Welsh for that matter) and I'd be very interested in hearing what they apparently are?
                        Given the no.of sub-species in each nation, not to mention often proudly much proclaimed regional differences, would probably take about 3 different MB's to explain succinctly!

                        Comment


                          #62
                          "Northern Britain"

                          historyman wrote:

                          I remember watching that, and the reactions of some of the participants were cringeworthy. There was one lady who worked for some society which promoted Anglo-Saxon heritage- in particular the Battle of Hastings- and claimed to be able to trace her pure AS lineage back to that time period.

                          The genetic results proved otherwise, that she was just as much of a mongrel as the rest of us. The program ended with the announcement that she was threatening legal action against the program makers.
                          Yes, it was good to watch, if only to see some peoples preconceptions of 'who' they are utterly discredited.

                          Generally the programme proved that where a mongrel mix of loads of various northern European peoples who came to Britain over the last two thousand years.

                          Comment


                            #63
                            "Northern Britain"

                            It turned out the Geordies are indeed descended from Vikings, but not the Vikings they liked to imagine they were descended from. They came from Denmark instead of Norway. (As indeed did the Angles, a few centuries apart, so most of the east coast of England is Danish in one way or another.)

                            It was on Channel 4, by the way.

                            Comment


                              #64
                              "Northern Britain"

                              It was surprising out widespread and prevalent the Danish genes were.

                              The Normans were pretty negligible, but they were the descendants of Viking settlers in northern France a few centuries earlier anyway.

                              Comment


                                #65
                                "Northern Britain"

                                I've only seen North Briton used as an insult by more extreme Scottish Nationalists who despise the large numbers (indeed majority) of Scots who do disagree with them.

                                Comment


                                  #66
                                  "Northern Britain"

                                  No doubt Gordon brown whilst in washington over the weekend having 'drinkies' with world leaders, happily told them all he was from 'north Britain'. The man is an absolute traitor to Scotland.

                                  Just for the record Brown, your country is called Scotland.


                                  Link: Comment 78

                                  Comment


                                    #67
                                    "Northern Britain"

                                    This programme sounds pretty interesting - anyone got a youtube/torrent link?

                                    Top google hits for Northern Britain are the Wiki entry on northern nelgand and, you guessed it TFC's album "Songs from Nothern Britain."

                                    Anyone going to see the Fannies and Super Furry Animals this weekend?

                                    Comment


                                      #68
                                      "Northern Britain"

                                      The insult is 'North Briton'

                                      Comment


                                        #69
                                        "Northern Britain"

                                        Whenever I mention over here (Germany) that I come from Northern England, the response is usually "Oh, Scotland".

                                        I was brought up to understand that the British Isles consist of Great Britain, Ireland, the Isle of Man and several groups of other small islands. Various Irish people have told me that this group of islands is not called the British Isle in Ireland. When I asked them what they were called in Ireland, the usual response was they couldn't remember. So what's the story? What are the British Isles called in Ireland?

                                        Comment


                                          #70
                                          "Northern Britain"

                                          Munchkin wrote:
                                          Reed of the Valley People wrote:
                                          Are there any people that get upset that the country is called Great Britain even though most people in Britain, and certainly most of the people who have run Britain over ther years, are more closely related to the Angles, the Saxon and, er, umm, the Franks, I guess, than they are to the original Britons who, as I recall, were a branch of Celts
                                          Well, since the decline of their dubious empire 50 or so years ago, 'mediocre' Britain would be more apt....
                                          Look. "Great Britain" is the name of the largest of the islands that lie off the West coast of Europe in the fifties of latitude. It's not the name of any country, and "Great" simply means that this island is (relatively) big (relative, in particular, to the French region of Brittany: "Grand Bretagne" vs simple "Bretagne", you see?)

                                          Fuck's sake.

                                          Comment


                                            #71
                                            "Northern Britain"

                                            And, obviously, the next largest island is "Little Britain". Or, to give it its proper name, "Lesser Britain"...

                                            Comment


                                              #72
                                              "Northern Britain"

                                              Defensive minded wrote:
                                              Various Irish people have told me that this group of islands is not called the British Isle in Ireland. When I asked them what they were called in Ireland, the usual response was they couldn't remember. So what's the story? What are the British Isles called in Ireland?
                                              Some people call them the British Isles, some avoid the issue- 'these islands' and the like. Understandably many Irish nationalists don't want to be linked with Britain even by association.

                                              Sometimes people or organisations euphemise to a ludicrous extent. The Irish Times referred to 'Sterling area' as a synonym for Britain for many years.

                                              Comment


                                                #73
                                                "Northern Britain"

                                                Defensive minded wrote:
                                                Whenever I mention over here (Germany) that I come from Northern England, the response is usually "Oh, Scotland".

                                                I was brought up to understand that the British Isles consist of Great Britain, Ireland, the Isle of Man and several groups of other small islands. Various Irish people have told me that this group of islands is not called the British Isle in Ireland. When I asked them what they were called in Ireland, the usual response was they couldn't remember. So what's the story? What are the British Isles called in Ireland?
                                                I once told an English chap, during a debate in University, that we called them the "Western Isles", figuring that as he would probably have heard the name before it might have a ring of authenticity. He believed me, but sadly it isn't true.

                                                Comment


                                                  #74
                                                  "Northern Britain"

                                                  Speaking of Henry Louis Gates.

                                                  BTW, only The Washington Post or New York Times would call the neighborhood around Harvard Square "middle class."

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