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Messi deserved the Golden Ball

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    Messi deserved the Golden Ball

    I'd actually been thinking of a post along the lines of the thread title because I think Messi was definitely the player of the group stages, at the very least, and had an excellent tournament over all. Macherano did well, but Messi was clearly the most important player on the Argentina team.

    Anyway, someone else has made the case pretty well for me.

    #2
    Messi deserved the Golden Ball

    If Muller had scored a couple more he might have got it. The Germans were a unit rather than having a standout individual.

    The only alternative, in terms of a single individual who made the difference for his team would've been Robben. And he arguably faded in the last two games even more than Messi did.

    Comment


      #3
      Messi deserved the Golden Ball

      It looked like a typically-FIFA case of 'Rodríguez can't have both' to me, but - unlike many, it seems - I've no problem with Messi winning it.

      His lessening impact was with good reason, after all - opposing sides put at least three players on him in every game.

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        #4
        Messi deserved the Golden Ball

        Messi doesn't dive? Messi doesn't know how good he is? Why not talk about his kissable lips and how his hair just makes you want to tussle it

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          #5
          Messi deserved the Golden Ball

          Messi deserves it more than Robben. But I'd still go for James Rodriguez.

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            #6
            Messi deserved the Golden Ball

            He was only two goals away from the Golden Boot. But then I was only six away, and I played a lot less football than Messi did this World Cup.

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              #7
              Messi deserved the Golden Ball

              Messi disappeared for almost the entirety of the Switzerland and Belgium matches, didn't touch the ball once in the Dutch penalty area in the 120 minutes of the semi-final, and shot badly wide in his biggest contribution in the final. No way was he remotely the best player in the competition. I don't think he was even Argentina's best player.

              Comment


                #8
                Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                Quite. I would agree that there was no one really outstanding player, and that thew winner must come from at least the semi-finalists, but in terms of performance Messi did fine against minnows, but did not do much against Holland or Germany (not that he was bad in the final, but not fantastic either).

                Robben played better than Messi, and had a greater impact than Messi did. There are games we'll remenber Robben's contribution for, especially in the 5-1 against Spain. The only thing I'll remember of Messi in this World Cup is him scoring the last-minute winner against Iran -- and that's not because of the goal itself, but because I felt sorry for Iran.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                  But if a far lesser known player had scored the goals he scored in the group stage, that player's impact would have been huge. He was also instrumental in winning the Switzerland game for Argentina.

                  When I saw Messi playing for Barcelona against Benfica, I was overwhelmed by how little he does on the pitch. He only runs when he is able to turn towards goal with the ball, but when he does this, which I would estimate is less than 10 times a game, he's terrifyingly difficult to deal with.

                  The Dutch dealt with him better than most, he was shadowed well when he was inside the Dutch half and when he dropped deep, Sneijder tracked him. He just didn't have the opportunity to turn and run and the opposition. Germany repeated such tactics to great effect in the final.

                  So basically, you had three boring games involving Argentina because to deal with Messi, your team has to be constantly aware of his position and even sacrifice your playmaker to track him when he drops deep. So, few goals but you've dealt with the key threat.

                  edit: I suppose you could compare Messi to a very cautious poker player. He only commits when the odds are heavily in his favour. Otherwise, he passes the ball back to the defender or midfielder who passed to him in the first place.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                    Of the forwards/attacking midfielders at this World Cup (because it's pointless to compare Messi to defenders or keepers), I'd argue that Muller, Robben, Rodríguez, Sánchez, Kroos and Benzema all had better tournaments than he did.

                    Messi's contribution was roughly comparable to Neymar's or van Persie's and no one is touting either of them as player of the tournament.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                      That missed chance in the final was perhaps the clincher - had he scored that, he'd have a strong case, but the fact he missed means that he didn't do the job he was there for, which was to do that one bit of magic that turns games.

                      He also missed the free kick at the end, whereas I can recall Zidane scoring in such do or die free kick scenarios.

                      Messi just didn't have the confidence, freshness or swagger of a dominant player, which is what we normally think of when remembering a world cup 'great'.

                      Admittedly, no other player quite did so either, although Robben and Rodriguez came closest.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                        Selected Ambient Works 85-92 wrote: Messi disappeared for almost the entirety of the Switzerland and Belgium matches
                        He did make the decisive challenge in the Belgium match that led to the goal, and made the assist in the Switzerland match. So perhaps that excuses his disappearing act somewhat. But yes, he used to be a much more active and involved player. I think he needs a six month vacation, to be honest.

                        Barca managers have tried resting him in matches against cannon fodder teams in the La Liga (and there are plenty of thoses), but apparently he throws a strop when that happens and refuses to sit on the bench. He wants to play every minute of every game, and now it seems to be catching up on him.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                          Messi's contribution was roughly comparable to Neymar's or van Persie's and no one is touting either of them as player of the tournament.
                          Are you?

                          Stop dissing and come up with an alternative then. as I said above, would people on here be happy with Robben getting it...?.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                            Erm, I mentioned six people above! And that's not including Neuer or any defenders.

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                              #15
                              Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                              I'd argue that Muller, Robben, Rodríguez, Sánchez, Kroos and Benzema all had better tournaments than he did.
                              Ok, and if they don't get beyond the Quarter finals, it's not gonna happen, so are you saying Robben or Kroos deserved it more?

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                                satchmo76 wrote: Messi just didn't have the confidence, freshness or swagger of a dominant player, which is what we normally think of when remembering a world cup 'great'.
                                The world cup greats of yesteryear were playing against players who were as good as amateurs compared to contemporary competition. They were slower, less fit, had less stamina and were less organized and had less defensive discipline. Messi would have made hay against the type of defences that Pele and Maradona played against.

                                Further, the days of great individuals winning World Cups has long since passed, this German team consisted of 23 interchangeable parts which bears testament to that. Its not Messi's fault the German team was just so much better than Argentina's.

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                                  #17
                                  Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                                  Felicity, I guess so wrote:
                                  I'd argue that Muller, Robben, Rodríguez, Sánchez, Kroos and Benzema all had better tournaments than he did.
                                  Ok, and if they don't get beyond the Quarter finals, it's not gonna happen, so are you saying Robben or Kroos deserved it more?
                                  More than Messi deserved it? Without a doubt.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                                    Robben, a self-confessed diver?

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                                      Robben exaggerated his fall against Mexico, but he was still fouled. Marquez knew his reputation, and still went ahead and stood on his instep. That's just moronic play.

                                      It's not just a case of counting up the goals either. Robben was a constant, relentless danger in every Netherlands match, always looking for the ball and making loads of unpredictable runs in the opposition half, whereas Messi vanished for huge stretches of most of Argentina's games.

                                      Obviously Messi is the better player in general but that's not the same thing.

                                      I'm very surprised that someone could sit through that entire tournament and conclude that Messi was as good as it got.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                                        hagi-stoichkov-romario wrote:
                                        Originally posted by satchmo76
                                        Messi just didn't have the confidence, freshness or swagger of a dominant player, which is what we normally think of when remembering a world cup 'great'.
                                        The world cup greats of yesteryear were playing against players who were as good as amateurs compared to contemporary competition. They were slower, less fit, had less stamina and were less organized and had less defensive discipline. Messi would have made hay against the type of defences that Pele and Maradona played against.
                                        That line of argument always puzzles me when it assumes that today's players would not have been affected by the limitations in training, diet, development, tactical progress etc of the time. Moreover, Messi wouldn't have received the protection which players receive now. He'd have been subjected to two-footed tackles from behind with impunity.

                                        I'm not suggesting that he wouldn't have been a great player had he been playing 40 years ago, but without the benefits of the progress made in football, I don't even know whether he'd have matched Gerd Müller's scoring rate.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                                          kicker tends to be a good guide to quality; I tend to find their player ratings to be pretty fair. Their ratings are based on the German school report system from 1-6. 1 is outstanding; 2 is good (they really mean very good, but that;s what they call a 1), 3 is satisfactory, 4 is adequate; 5 is deficient and 6 is David Luis in a 7-1 defeat.

                                          Their Top 10 rankings with average-rating

                                          1. James (Kolumbien) .................1,80
                                          2. Cahill (Australien) ....................2,00
                                          3. Robben (Niederlande) .............2,07
                                          4. Christodoulopoulos (Griechenl.) .2,25
                                          5. E. Valencia (Ecuador) ..............2,33
                                          6. Boateng (Deutschland) ...........2,36
                                          7. Herrera (Mexiko) .....................2,38
                                          8. Benzema (Frankreich) .............2,40
                                          9. Hummels (Deutschland) ..........2,42
                                          10. Neymar (Brasilien) ..................2,50
                                          Aranguiz (Chile) .......................2,50
                                          Sanchez (Chile) .......................2,50
                                          Müller (Deutschland) ...............2,50
                                          Cuadrado (Kolumbien) ............2,50
                                          Suarez (Uruguay) .....................2,50

                                          Messi doesn't even feature in the Top 20 (the bottom of which -- Gervinho and Slimani) has an average of 2,67).

                                          If we were to go by these ratings plus impact and with the proviso that the best player must have reached the semi-final, I'd say that Robben shades it, fairly well ahead of Hummels and Müller.

                                          If we drop the semi-final proviso, then there is no other choice than James Rodriguez.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                                            the german team wasn't really 23 interchangeable parts. some parts were more important than others and i think müller was the one who made the whole attacking side of the team work.

                                            i was at six of the seven germany matches, the only one i missed was algeria. müller gives the team so much. he can run, he can control any ball that is played up to him, he can hold off defenders, he can play people in and he can score. he's the only german player who can do all that. he was always the guy they looked for first in the attacking positions and he was usually available for the pass.

                                            i disagree that messi disappeared against switzerland and belgium. he was tightly marked in both matches but he was still the best player on the field. certainly that was the case in the swiss match, which i was at. to set up the goal like that at the end of such a tight match, you can't say he disappeared - he decided it. and some of the touches in the belgium match were incredible. the jinking past a couple of players on the edge of the box to win a free kick in the first half was absolute genius.

                                            the performance in the final was terrible. not just that he missed his chance and didn't really set anything up for anyone else. it was the way he would just stand in midfield and watch schweinsteiger amble forward with the ball looking for someone to pick out. he was a hole in the argentina team. they did well to take it to extra time effectively playing with ten men.

                                            He just didn't have the opportunity to turn and run and the opposition. Germany repeated such tactics to great effect in the final.
                                            there was a moment in the second half when he got the ball in an ideal position to drive at a retreating (and obviously panicking) german back line, but rather than take them on, he slowed up and waited for someone else to make a run beyond them. that was the moment when you knew for sure that there was actually something wrong with him. whatever the reason was, he basically couldn't run.

                                            at the end of it all he still hasn't scored a goal in a knockout game in the world cup. after five games it looked like he was on the brink of doing something amazing, and after seven it was a disaster.

                                            i would have said müller was the player of the tournament, followed by mascherano, who did more than anyone to get argentina through their knockout games, and toni kroos, who is the other key player in the germany team. robben i think would have been a candidate for the top three; rodriguez, i dunno. if you're giving it to him you might as well give it to messi. i think messi's goals in the group stage were better.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                                              garcia wrote:
                                              there was a moment in the second half when he got the ball in an ideal position to drive at a retreating (and obviously panicking) german back line, but rather than take them on, he slowed up and waited for someone else to make a run beyond them. that was the moment when you knew for sure that there was actually something wrong with him. whatever the reason was, he basically couldn't run.
                                              You're spot on. There was a moment in the game when Messi pulled up and you could see by his facial expression that something was wrong. He probably semi-pulled his hamstring and was afraid of it to go completely.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                                                The problem with awards is that they're often given to the best player and not for what the award actually stands for. About two year ago Falcao had a fantastic season. He should have been the player of the year, but eventually Messi won it because he's a better player.

                                                The same case can be made about Manuel Neuer. He was probably the best goalkeeper at the World Cup in the same way as Messi was probably the best player at the World Cup, but I thought both the Mexican goalkeeper and Navas actually had a better tournament.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Messi deserved the Golden Ball

                                                  kicker agrees with you:

                                                  1. Navas (Costa Rica) ..................1,80
                                                  2. Ochoa (Mexiko) .......................1,88
                                                  3. Neuer (Deutschland) ...............2,00
                                                  4. Howard (USA) .........................2,25
                                                  5. Dominguez (Ecuador) ..............2,33
                                                  6. Bravo (Chile) ...........................2,38
                                                  7. Buffon (Italien) ........................2,50
                                                  8. Ospina (Kolumbien) ................2,60
                                                  9. M‘Bohli (Algerien) ....................2,63
                                                  Benaglio (Schweiz) ..................2,63

                                                  Though Neuer introduced a "new" form of goalkeeping as sweeping; I think that merits bonus points. And that safe in the last minute against France, when he slapped the ball away with contempt, was the coolest one of the World Cup.

                                                  It wasn't the best safe, of course. Neuer said that had that shot gone in, it would have been a goalkeeping error.

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