Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

[NHH]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

On the Kramer point, he looked absolutely in bits when he was subbed. The two previous concussions I saw (Perreira and Mascherano) were mitigated by the fact that both played on without any obvious impact, but Kramer was clearly dazed and should have been subbed straight away and looked in a bad way when he was finally taken off.

[Tony C]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

"I can't say what Higuain's thought processes were.."

I bet he bloody well can't either.

[Ek weet nie]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

On Kramer, the referee didn't help matters by allowing play to continue for 90 seconds whilst Kramer lay injured.

[Mumpo]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

tratorello wrote:

I don't think any squad has inspired as many earworms as the current Germans.

There's Love Will Tear Us Apart, and Reus! from Don't Bring Me Down (yeah I know he didn't make the squad in the end), the peerless Mertesacker Emptiness, and now, "When the Germans knocked the Argies out the cup...

Goetze!"

Am I the only one who sings "Khedira, Khedira" in the style of Wyclef Jean from Shakira's "Hips don't lie"?

Actually, in the context of Don't Bring Me Down, 'Kroos!' works much better than 'Reus!'.

[blameless]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

Leaving aside the duelling campaigns to have Neuer either beatified or hanged, I think one thing that's been highlighted at this tournament (and needs to be addressed) is how football deals with concussions.

There have been a few instances where players have been momentarily knocked senseless and then played out the rest of the game. This is incredibly dangerous (especially as players are getting bigger and faster), and if the player concussed gets another bang on the head in quick succession it can cause long-term neurological damage.

Football needs to introduce a rule that says if you've been knocked out, you must stay off the field.

[Toby Gymshorts]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

Having been knocked out (on more than one occasion) on the pitch, I agree.

[anton pulisov]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

Yes, it has been an absolute disgrace.

[jason voorhees]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

Toby Gymshorts wrote: Having been knocked out (on more than one occasion) on the pitch, I agree.

A girl I trained who was an outstanding gk had to stop playing because of her multiple concussions from goalkeeping and taking charges in basketball.

She was quite critical of FIFA allowing players to bully doctors who said they couldn't play because of concussions.

It's obviously a problem in all sports. The unprecedentedly faster, stronger players we get now are still hitting what is basically the same skull we've had for the past however many centuries.

[Janik]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

NHH wrote: Correct. Neuer's style of leap is predicated on Higuain being there.

No, Neuer's style of leap is predicated on him being in a deeply vulnerable position. His eyes are on the ball, he doesn't know if the forward is going to pull out or not. What he knows is that he is at risk of serious injury if the forward doesn't veer away as they should, unless he is braced for impact.

See jv's comments about goalkeepers being taught to jump like this to protect themselves. And again see also Rugby full-backs, who take hanging balls with a knee up and held stiff in front of themselves, for exactly the same reasons.

Making any challenge on airborne players ('keepers or otherwise) is recklessly dangerous and should be penalised. 'keepers trying to protect themselves by leading with a knee is a response to the danger which endangers the other player in turn. Unpicking the situation so that 'keepers are not having to take protective action would be nice, but that probably means the ref whistling well before an aerial ball drops in the box.

[Furtho]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

Ek weet nie wrote: On Kramer, the referee didn't help matters by allowing play to continue for 90 seconds whilst Kramer lay injured.

To be fair on the ref, Kramer's team-mates were happy for play to continue as well. It was the Argentinian players who were encouraging them to kick the ball out of play.

[Hofzinser]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

Correct. Neuer's style of leap is predicated on Higuain being there. If it's a race to the ball in which he has an advantage - and thus where Higuain's arrival would be after the ball and thus 'late' - then Neuer's jumping to simply meet the ball with his head or fist. He jumps differently because he knows there will be a collision, and he's making sure he's not going to get flipped by Higuain by keeping his body size minimal, so he doesn't somersault on impact.

I can't say what Higuain's thought proceses where, because he's going for the ball alone, in a place he is entitled to go for it. He doesn't leap, he doesn't check Neuer's position. Neuer is the one in control of this passage of play and in control of what happens next, and he takes action precisely because he knows it's a risky move, and despite this knowledge, he acts with an absolutely cavalier disregard.

This pretty much nails it.

Higuain is going for the ball in a perfectly legitimate way, and in such a way that no one's safety is implicitly endangered.

Neuer, on the other hand, can pretty much only attempt to play the ball by making an inherently risky move in which he flies through the air, and can't fully control what happens next. He makes the decision to execute this risky move, but makes sure that whatever happens he will be alright - and in so doing utterly recklessly creates an incredibly dangerous situation for Higuain. It's almost wilfully risking the safety of an opponent (there's really no way to carry out that move without risking either yourself or your opponent) and is as clear an example of dangerous play as you can get.

I'm absolutely prepared to believe that it wasn't malicious but it was quite obviously reckless and deserving of punishment.

[Hofzinser]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

Just because Neuer was able to get the ball quicker than anyone else and play it before making contact with anyone doesn't automatically make it a fair challenge. If your only way of making the challenge is to launch yourself through the air, knees raised, and not in full control of your body, then whether or not you get to the ball is almost irrelevant, I'd say.

[Janik]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout



This picture is captioned as Hugo Southwell is fortunate to remain on the pitch when he inadvertently takes out Wales full-back Lee Byrne in the air jumping for a high ball, while the Scotland number 15 gets a left foot in the face for his troubles too

Rugby has more incidents of players being challenged as they jumped for the ball, or had before they changed their rules in response to the number of full-backs and wingers getting seriously hurt.
As the caption implies, the norm is now for a player to end up in the sin-bin if they collide with an airborne player, even when it is accidental.

[NHH]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

Absolutely. It needs stating that this wasn't because Neuer's a cunt, ala Schumacher, but has a psychotic desire to preserve a clean sheet (witness his rage when Oscar scored for Brazil) which 99% of the time is exactly what you want in a goalkeeper, and what makes him the best goalkeeper of my lifetime (which is to say the best there's ever been). But the over the ball challenge has been outlawed because the game can't have it. And it can't have this either.

I'm not sure what the impact of tougher sanctions would be, but an outfield player is going to get seriously hurt sooner rather than later as keepers extend their zone of control further out of the 6 yard box, and so equalise the speed with which they arrive into contact positions with players, and instead of being presumed innocent or more vulnerable, need to be treated equally as a with any other player.

[Janik]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

Hofzinser wrote: Higuain is going for the ball in a perfectly legitimate way, and in such a way that no one's safety is implicitly endangered.

Not true at all. Neuer's safety was implicitly and seriously endangered by Higuain's challenge.

[Janik]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

NHH wrote: it can't have this either.

Stop 'keepers going in with their knee up without simulateously finding a way of stopping outfield players challenging them whilst they are jumping for a ball, and you are going to end up with a 'keeper with a broken neck in very short order.

[hobbes]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

But firstly, this isn't rugby, Janik. And secondly, football isn't a contact sport in the way rugby is. Besides, Higuain isn't running towards Neuer. He's running in a line towards the byline. Neuer ran and leapt into him. Higuain wasn't given the opportunity to get out of the way. It's terribly reckless from Neuer. Your suggestion that Higuain should have checked where the keeper was, 20 yards from goal and then deferred to him while he threw himself bodily through the air with his knee up, is utterly ludicrous.
I mean, what if it had happened on the half way line? Still the striker's fault?

[hobbes]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

Janik wrote:

Higuain is going for the ball in a perfectly legitimate way, and in such a way that no one's safety is implicitly endangered.

Not true at all. Neuer's safety was implicitly and seriously endangered by Higuain's challenge.

For fuck's sake. Higuain didn't make a challenge. He was waiting for the ball to drop running away from the goal and the big fucking lunk jumped into him. There was no challenge from Higuian. None. Neuer just flattened him.

Look. At no point is Higuain even aware that Neuer was there. And nor should he be in that part of the pitch.

https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/4F9...lf7pHwOuxJx7h3

[Hofzinser]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

Not true at all. Neuer's safety was implicitly and seriously endangered by Higuain's challenge.

Wow. If you can watch this and honestly take from that that it was Higuain seriously endangering Neuer rather than the other way around then I'm not sure what to do except scratch my head in bewilderment, and wonder which one of us is going insane.

[Janik]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

hobbes wrote: secondly, football isn't a contact sport in the way rugby is.

That is why it is beholden on a player getting there late to pull out of challenges in football.

Higuain isn't running towards Neuer. He's running in a line towards the byline. Neuer ran and leapt into him.

Neuer isn't running towards Higuain. He is heading towards the touchline. Higuain runs on a line through his jump, which guanretees there will be a collision.

I mean, what if it had happened on the half way line? Still the striker's fault?

Yes. Why wouldn't it be?

[Janik]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

hobbes wrote: nor should he be in that part of the pitch.

A 'keeper shouldn't be in his penalty area? Riiight.

[G-Man]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

hobbes wrote:
Look. At no point is Higuain even aware that Neuer was there. And nor should he be in that part of the pitch.

Is there a prescription that prevents a goalkeeper from being in certain areas of his penalty area? News to me.

It was a collision. I don't think Higuain was reckless in making the run; he was entitled to do so. As was Neuer to punch it, even at great speed (is that really a serious argument: he was running too fast and jumping too high?).

So what was Neuer no supposed to do:

1. Try to get to a ball which might have posed danger?

2. Run so fast, and instead first look left and right for traffic?

3. Jump so high (which he actually didn't do) but rather carefully consider the consequences of your actions, young man?

4. Take evasive action when a collision is about to take place?

I have a feeling that even Higuain would laugh at any of these notions.

[Cesar Rodriguez]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

Janik wrote: And again see also Rugby full-backs, who take hanging balls with a knee up and held stiff in front of themselves, for exactly the same reasons.

A truly preposterous comparison. Full backs are stationary when catching a garryowen and they raise their knee to protect themselves from players who are advancing directly toward them at high speed. Higgy was not moving toward Neuer as he tracked the ball.

Neuer's recklessness and wilfull endangerment of another players health and safety was in no way analogous to what a fullback does to protect himself.

[hobbes]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

Janik wrote:

nor should he be in that part of the pitch.

A 'keeper shouldn't be in his penalty area? Riiight.

Come on Janik. That's not what I wrote, is it?

[Hofzinser]

Germany vs Argentina heavy-weight title bout

So what was Neuer no supposed to do:

1. Try to get to a ball which might have posed danger?

2. Run so fast, and instead first look left and right for traffic?

3. Jump so high (which he actually didn't do) but rather carefully consider the consequences of your actions, young man?

4. Take evasive action when a collision is about to take place?

1. Only if it's safe and prudent to do so. You don't have the right to challenge for any ball in any way you see fit just because your opponent is in a dangerous area.

2. Do I think a player should look out for other people before charging headlong at top speed for the ball? Um, yes.

3. If one of those consequences is the serious endangering of another player then yes, I'd bloody well hope he'd take that into consideration.

4. If your only way to make the move is to either take evasive action and thereby endanger an opponent, or not take evasive action and thereby endanger yourself, then you shouldn't be making the move in the first place.

I'm honestly not sure what people are struggling with here.