How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

[imp]

It took me 40 years to face up to it, but last night I finally got round to watching extended highlights of Scotland's games against Brazil and Yugoslavia in 1974. What really surprised me was how many players were prepared to run with the ball and attack their opponents - Jardine, Lorimer, David Hay, Willie Morgan, McGrain at times (Dalglish was fairly anonymous by comparison). It was great to watch a Scottish team that seemed to have so much confidence in itself, and that took the game to their opponents right from the start. No tapping it around for 20 minutes and getting nine men behind the ball for fear of conceding.

Against Brazil, a draw was probably the fair result, though Bremner's miss from two yards out is still painful to watch. What a dirty wee bastard he was, though - some shocking tackles, and not a yellow card in sight. Then he was nagging the referee at every opportunity. Holton was a conspicuously filthy clogger too alongside an otherwise cultured back line of Buchan, Jardine and McGrain. Jordan and Lorimer could dish it out too, though no doubt it's just a coincidence that they nearly all played for Leeds.

The Yugoslavs had clearly watched this footage and set out to get their retaliation in first against Bremner - wise move in that it clearly affected the physical side of his game, but also seemed to make him concentrate more on his actual game, which was more than good enough when he had the ball at his feet. The Yugoslavs were a turgid, negative bunch judging by this game, and Scotland were really unlucky not to win. Yet when they actually went forward and played football, they obviously had talent - it was just that after their 9-0 shellacking of Zaire they knew they could sit back and kick the Scots out of the Waldstadion and get a draw.

Despite all the foul play, there's paradoxically still a vestige of old style sportsmanship in the game at this point. Rivelino at one point takes revenge on Bremner with a shocking, pre-meditated foul. Bremner, outraged that anyone could ever make such a play, gets in his face, but then they end up almost smiling and shaking hands. Plenty of cross-nation camaraderie at the end of both games too.

I didn't realize until last night just how much I fucking loved Billy Bremner.

I think, realistically, that there will never be another Scottish team as good as this one, and this - not 1978 - was really their one true chance to at least come close to winning the World Cup.

[G-Man]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

They were highly rated in West Germany before the World Cup. And Billy Bremner was so highly praised, one might have thought he was just a small notch below Franz Beckenbauer.

[Borracho]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

Yugoslavia-Scotland 1974 is one of the most shockingly violent games I've ever seen.

Scotland ultimately ballsed it up by picking Denis Law for the Zaire game. Law was 34 by then and a spent force at international level. The heat didn't help either, and Dalglish did the first of his three World Cup disappearing acts.

Bremner dished out a lot of racist abuse to various Zaire players in that game. They complained at length about it afterwards.

There is a new book out about Scotland 1974 by Richard Gordon of the BBC, whose book about Aberdeen in the 1980s was pretty good.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Scotland-74-World-Cup-Story/dp/1845027493/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1401372250&sr=8-1&keywords=richard+gordon

[Raynor]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

my ipswich supporting granddad has a deep dislike for 70s leeds (which continues awkwardly to the utterly identity-lacking present: brian macdermott is never a leeds united manager) and bremner in particular. my girlfriends just moved here from guiseley, so there couldve been some decent family-banter going on there, but she has no interest in football whatsoever so its unlikely to be bought up again

i felt a bit sorry for her tho, my granddad's a proper suffolk old-boi, rambling on about billy bremner the first time he meets her cos thats the last thing he can remember not to do with gardening

[Satchmo Distel]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

Depends which 2nd round group they'd have ended up in. I think West Germany & Poland would have been very tough for them but they could have matched Brazil's 4th place as group runner-up to the Dutch.

The 1978 XI that played Holland was very good, having dumped the flops Masson and Rioch, but again I think the final was a step too far with Argentina's home advantage (ref bribing), Brazil gradually coming good in the 2nd phase, and the very good Italian side, even though they'd have avoided Holland until the final.

1982 and 1986 - tough group but I'm not sure they were among the best 12 sides by then.

1990 and 1998 - I think they were poor: Costa Rica, Morocco. Late heroics v a poor Brazil in 1990 notwithstanding.

[Jah Womble]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

Scotland genuinely could've done so much better at that 1974 World Cup. Having effectively won the game, they rested on their laurels against Zaire - it staggers me that it wasn't apparent to Willie Ormond et al that in a tough group such as that, goals were likely to be what it was all about - as Yugoslavia had clearly sussed. The performances in the remaining games were very impressive, particularly in light of the violent challenges dished out left, right and centre. However, I was also bemused (even at the time) as to why Scotland's players just celebrated the equaliser against Yugoslavia instead of retrieving the ball and hunting down the winning goal they desperately needed.

[Satchmo Distel]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

Did they think Brazil weren't going to get that 3rd goal and hadn't been told the score (it was only 1-0 until Rivelino scored after 66 mins)?

[Jah Womble]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

That was certainly mooted at the time, but would be a pretty crazy way of conducting a World Cup campaign.

(NB Brazil's third had been scored by the time Yugoslavia took the lead against Scotland - and there were still some ninety seconds left for play after Jordan's equaliser.)

[Satchmo Distel]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

However, on the footage, you can just make out (at around 9:15) a Scotland player having retrieved the ball running back quite quickly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd5WpOcRfMw

[Felicity, I guess so]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

Coincidentally, imp, I did exactly that last night too!
I also watched every goal from '98 and was amazed at how many matches I'd forgotten the score of, given I was living in Toulouse, obsessively following the tournament in L'Equipe etc.

The striking thing in the Brazil game is their confidence to run at the defence, as you say. And didn't Rivelinho actually smack Bremner before they shake hands?

I've told this on here before, but a barber in Madrid, discovering my Scottishness, launched into a list of the 'guerreros' (warriors) he associated with that land:

"Braybe-harr! Weeliam Wallass! Beely Bremnerr! Guerreros!"

[imp]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

Jair Womble wrote: However, I was also bemused (even at the time) as to why Scotland's players just celebrated the equaliser against Yugoslavia instead of retrieving the ball and hunting down the winning goal they desperately needed.

I noticed that too. I wondered if it might have been protocol - it was such a good goal, and after three hours of positive play so deserved, that they maybe thought it was worth congratulating each other for the record. It's possible they didn't know the Brazil score, but even then they should surely have reckoned with Brazil having got more than two and been sprinting back to the half way line. (Last night was the first time I ever saw this goal - at eight years old I'd left the room distraught and gone to play football in the garden. Even when my dad called out that we'd equalized, I couldn't face going back inside.)

They should have been in even more of a rush when you think how little injury time was played in these games. In fact in the first half of the Yugoslavia game, it looked like they played less than 45 minutes, but that might have been the dodgy TV watch graphic. SAW - I noticed that book, and read the introduction on amazon, but it seemed pretty pedestrian. Much more enjoyable to watch the footage and pretend not to know anything about Bremner's alleged character defects (or mindless sledging, if you want to be generous).

One more observation - Sir Alf Ramsey was pretty good as co-commentator, and admirably objective. Pointed out that the Scots were making a meal of the early fouls (they were - rolling around like mainland Europeans), then delivered a fair, considered verdict on their performance in his clipped, pooterish tones. Not bad, considering how much he reputedly hated the country.

[imp]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

Felicity, I guess so wrote: And didn't Rivelinho actually smack Bremner before they shake hands?

Yes, you're right. Bremner's at first incredulous, squares up to Rivelino, appeals to the ref, then probably thinks at some point, "I deserved that", shakes hands with Rivelino and gets on with the game. Different kind of theatrics in those days, right enough.

[Cal Alamein]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

Just through looking at the 10 min. or so highlights for each Scotland match.

Some observations:

*David Harvey played three matches and wore three different colored tops - Red, Green, and Yellow.

*I'd seen Lorimer hit some great goals, but he was belting some missiles in Germany that summer.

*Not too big a surprise I suppose, but in 3 matches – one game with no sub, the other two w/ Hutchison the lone sub.

*I was not sure who #10 was (David Hay) so I looked up the Scottish squad to check who was who and saw an Erich Schaedler who wore #22 and had one cap. I thought this had to be a misprint as I easily knew of the other 21 players. Looked up his bio and what a depressing end.

[Geoffrey de Ste. Croix]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

Gallus. That’s the word we are looking for, gallus. We don’t have it anymore in the game and it’s the number one reason why we’re now shite. Our footballers don’t have gallusness anymore. '74 may not have been as gallus as '67 with Baxter, Johnstone, Henderson, Law (in his prime) et al, but the '74 team had it more than enough to ensure they were not overawed by any team on the world stage.

My current footballing obsession is with early to mid 70’s Scottish football. Hibs and the Turnbull’s Tornadoes, the 1970 Scottish Cup winning Aberdeen side (also managed by Eddie Turnbull), Partick Thistle pumping Celtic in the 1971 League Cup final...it’s difficult to comprehend now just how competitive and talented the Scottish domestic game was.

All three of the teams mentioned above beat Celtic in cup finals, Aberdeen in 1970, Hibs in the 72 League Cup final and Thistle in 71. This was at a time when Celtic themselves had reached a European Cup final and two semis, of course Rangers European exploits brought a trophy. The domestic game was glorious.

This was clear to see in the squad for 1974. As well as the Old Firm and Anglos, who would be expected to completely dominate the squad, there were two Hibs players (John Blackley and the tragic Eric Schaedler), Donald Ford of Hearts, Thompson Allan of Dundee and Jim Stewart of Kilmarnock. It’s just a shame Pat Stanton never made it, a player of his culture and grace deserved to be seen on the world stage.

A cursory glance at the programme of any fixture in the 1973-74 Scottish First division season would reveal a myriad of great players who would never be capped for Scotland. It was the best of times, especially looking at it from the worst of times.

Archie Macpherson’s account of the pre tournament warm up, Willie Ormond and the press and the media coverage is fascinating. As an eyewitness he writes the Scotland manager had no control over the squad and no control over the press, who took the seemingly timorous Ormond to the cleaners, so much so that the SFA bunged certain journalists to tone it down.

After pre tournament games against Belgium in Brussels and Norway in Oslo, drink was taken in enormous quantities (believe it or not) and disorder ruled. Ormond was completely ineffectual and the players ignored him. As Macpherson pointed out, the players would not have dared had it been Stein or Waddell in charge. Stein, who was coincidentally in West Germany as part of the BBC team had serious private misgivings about Ormond as he was to have about Macleod in 1978. Another interesting aside regarding Stein is that apparently he was the only member of the BBC team that the imperious, supremely arrogant David Coleman never, ever, ever crossed and treated with total respect.

Had there been a different manager in charge, who knows what Scotland may have achieved. As it was, Ormond probably took Scotland as far as they were ever likely to under his management. But what a team. The strength of the Scottish domestic game was clearly underlined by the fact that almost half the squad played in the Scottish First Division.

And that 74 away kit v Yugoslavia is the second greatest Scotland away top. It’s only beaten by the 1986 lemon one for purely sentimental childhood reasons.

Where has all the gallusness gone? As another world party passes us by, I almost can’t watch any of the 1974 games, it’s too painful to see what we’ve lost in footballing terms.

[ursus arctos]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

It’s only beaten by the 1896 lemon one for purely sentimental childhood reasons.

You are amazingly lucid for one of such an advanced age.

[Geoffrey de Ste. Croix]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

Touche. Fixed now.

Cal Alamein wrote:

*I was not sure who #10 was (David Hay) so I looked up the Scottish squad to check who was who and saw an Erich Schaedler who wore #22 and had one cap. I thought this had to be a misprint as I easily knew of the other 21 players. Looked up his bio and what a depressing end.

Notably, the son of a German POW.

[imp]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

I'd never heard of Schaedler (or his sad fate) either, and he's from my parents' home town, Biggar. What a bizarre story - why on earth would anyone committing suicide go to the trouble of covering their car with tree branches?

[Land Waster]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

[quote]imp wrote:

One more observation - Sir Alf Ramsey was pretty good as co-commentator, and admirably objective. Pointed out that the Scots were making a meal of the early fouls (they were - rolling around like mainland Europeans), then delivered a fair, considered verdict on their performance in his clipped, pooterish tones. Not bad, considering how much he reputedly hated the country.

I think you could drop the 'reputedly' without fear of libel. Leo McKinstry's biog of Ramsey from a few years back highlights his disdain for any society outside the Home Counties, never mind those 'Scots Fuckers.'

It's about time that the 74 side stepped out of the shadow of the squad four years later. The glorious failure story is beginning to wear a bit thin.

[Commodore]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

Scotland had such an embarrassment of riches in midfield it was unreal; Geoffrey mentioned Pat Stanton's omission but check these names out; Macari, Gemmill, Rioch, McGovern, Hartford and Souness.

In terms of other positions it was perhaps a different story; Jim Holton, Martin Buchan and Willie Morgan were part of a relegated Man U side yet they got the nod. Denis Law also went even though he had no hunger for the game after his cheeky back-heel at Old Trafford. Why John O'Hare wasn't in the frame is also something of a mystery. Maybe Ormond and Dave Mackay didn't get along?

And much has been made of Dalglish's no show in previous games that it took Jock Stein of all men to drop him for the USSR game in Spain 82. No wonder David Coleman dared not criticise him.

And speaking of Coleman...

[Land Waster]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

[quote]Land Waster wrote:

One more observation - Sir Alf Ramsey was pretty good as co-commentator, and admirably objective. Pointed out that the Scots were making a meal of the early fouls (they were - rolling around like mainland Europeans), then delivered a fair, considered verdict on their performance in his clipped, pooterish tones. Not bad, considering how much he reputedly hated the country.

I think you could drop the 'reputedly' without fear of libel. Leo McKinstry's biog of Ramsey from a few years back highlights his disdain for any society outside the Home Counties, never mind those 'Scots Fuckers.'

I dug out the book last night, and after reading some of the anecdotes about his hatred for Scotland enjoyed the heavy irony of him co-commentating on their games!

For example: Being greated at Prestwick airport by a reporter -

"Welcome to Scotland, Mr Ramsey."

"You must be fuckin' jokin."

[Jah Womble]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

I'd never heard of Schaedler (or his sad fate) either, and he's from my parents' home town, Biggar. What a bizarre story - why on earth would anyone committing suicide go to the trouble of covering their car with tree branches?

More to the point, if you're 'in' the car, how is it even possible? Simply opening and shutting the door would surely dislodge most of the foliage.

Jair Womble wrote:

One more observation - Sir Alf Ramsey was pretty good as co-commentator, and admirably objective. Pointed out that the Scots were making a meal of the early fouls (they were - rolling around like mainland Europeans), then delivered a fair, considered verdict on their performance in his clipped, pooterish tones. Not bad, considering how much he reputedly hated the country.

I'd like to point out that I didn't actually say any of the above.

[Land Waster]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

There was a 30 min BBC Scotland documentary on the 74 side a few years back. Worth viewing.

[imp]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

Thanks for that, LW - really enjoyed it (wipes tear from eye at airport scenes).

[Land Waster]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

There's also a new book out about the 74 side. I came across this interview with the author last week.

http://theinsideleft.com/scotland-world-cup-74/

[Felicity, I guess so]

How good were Scotland at the 1974 World Cup?

Why did David Harvey only get that many (18?) caps?