not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

[Reed John]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

Back up. So is the take-home message from this that Michael Ballack is gay? That the black change strips are gay? Nothaththeresanythingwrongwiththat.

Moving stuff from Nef. Very moving.

The comments about how Germans seem to be better at facing their past than the Austrians or Swiss reminds me of the US. Liberal New Englanders and Midwesterners are not, in my observation, as aware of the racism in their regions' respective pasts as much as liberals in the South are. Charlotte has the Museum of the New South with exhibits about the marches and sit-ins and so forth. I can't recall seeing that kind of cultural scab-picking (to borrow a phrase) in Boston and certainly not in Washington.

The obvious big difference between Germany and South Africa is that the latter is still home to both the victims and the aggressors of the past, which is obviously not the case in Germany. Nationalism/patriotism in RSA then is as much about unity and reconciliation as anything, whereas in Germany it doesn't have that positive element

That's it in a nutshell, isn't it? Nationalism is bad insofar as it's meant to divide "us versus them," and it's good insofar as its meant to show unity of "all of us." Of course, the two are not easy to separate.

Germany can't bring back the Jews, but it can turn the page and resolve to treat Africans, Turks, Poles, Arabs, differently. Of course, nobody is getting gassed or losing their property, but I'm not sure to what extent Germany has really embraced integration. I read that second and third-generation descendants of immigrants are still widely regarded as "foreign." Certainly, when I studied German in high school, we were told that's how it was. But I can't really comment on how true that still is, especially in the EU.

Also, did anyone else see that article about how a gang of anarchists are showing off on the internet all of the German flags they've stolen? The article - in the Journal, I think - sympathetically focused on a guy from Beirut who was flying the flag during the Cup. I think the leftists who did this are clearly misguided douchebags. Regardless of the pros or cons of flag-waving, one does not bring about positive change, let alone a positive revolution, by simply suppressing other peoples' expression.

[Reed John]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

It just happened that most of the bankers (and, through wealth, the intellectuals) happened to be Jewish - as true in Germany as it was in Britain, or America.

is an assertion which is both factually untrue and politically incendiary, and needs at the very least to be contextualised if its not intended to be taken at face value.

I read it the less-charitable way - that Rogin is under the misapprehension that the Jews really did dominate those professions.

But I think he is right that there was a spectrum of anti-semitism in the Nazi's support. Just as in American racism, there are the hard-core, full-on, illucid KKK/Nazi skinhead types on one end and yer more casual "well, I like the good ni**ers, just not the uppity ones like Obama" on the other end.

Indeed, I guess a majority of Americans (and Britons too, I guess) who were proud to beat the Nazis in WWII aligned themselves with the more socially acceptable kinds of bigotry in the 1940s and beyond. Just because they didn't want to see blacks or Jews lynched or gassed or robbed of their property, doesn't mean they were comfortable with blacks and Jews in their schools, baseball teams or, God forbid, marrying their daughter.

[ursus arctos]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

It's worth comparing Rogin's post to his contributions to the "graduate tax" thread.

[Moonlight Shadow]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

Nefertiti2 wrote:

Switzerland, incidentally, is another country which has singularly failed to engage with its anti-semitic past and its culpability in aiding the crimes (and the criminals) of the Third Reich and where (in my experience) a casual racism (which still includes anti-semitism) is often assumed to connect the indigenous community.

Sadly, this is cobblers. A quick read of the Bergier Commission wiki should be all it's needed to dispel the notion that the Swiss govt has not acted to adress the murky past of the country, eventhough only doing so when forced into a corner. It is a comprehensive, no holds barred, very well funded, very long investigation that left no stone unturned and was widely praised by Jewish organisations for its thoroughness.

Interestingly, a noted Nazi hunter, did challenge one of the key findings, the number of Jewish folks turned away at the border but not in the way you might think:

Klarsfeld

[Nefertiti2]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

Thank you for pointing me in the direction of the bergier commission.

The fact that the Swiss government in 1996, a full fifty years after the end of the war, set up a commission to look at the "murky past" when "forced into a corner' does not, for me, equate to a full engagement, not only at state but also on an individual level with the past.

The report I understand was not universally welcomed or acted upon.

You don't engage with the second half of my statement about the continuing prevalence of a casual racism to be encountered in Switzerland which may well occur elsewhere but i have not found so confidently expressed by nice middle class people to strangers in other European countries.

[Moonlight Shadow]

not just a bunch of ethnics, but queers as well...

The report was not welcomed by the nationalist right, which per se says a thing or two about it validity I'd say.

I've already pointed out the steps taken to adress the issue were taken way too late and only when pressure became too much but they were taken and it was not some half-hearted withewash but an extensive report that left no stones unturned and indeed had an impact in the country. People took positions behind their political affilliations but there is no more the convenient excuse to hide behind ignorance.

I did not comment on your second point because I do not disagree with you on it, except maybe on the point that it is not a uniquely Swiss problem. The right-wing media in this country(UK) are quite happy to indulge in constant streams of casual racism and do retain large readerships that point toward a segment of the population (far from being found only at the bottom of the social order) which is quite a ease with that discourse but maybe a bit more discreet about expressing it towards strangers(although Daily Mail or Daily Express readers seem quite proud of it...). I've certainly head my share of casually racist discourse from people who can't use lack of education to justify their opinions.

That is, in my opinion, the main difference, the fact that over here that kind of discourse is frowned upon in politite society but once in confidence, comes out quite readily. Funny things happen when you say you are from Switzerland, people suddenly feel a lot less reserverd about expressing views of a certain nature, me being one of them in their eyes.

To go back to football, looking at our football national team, in all age groups, I have at last the feeling the country is moving in the right direction. 40 years ago, Italian and Spanish immigrants were demonised, nowadays they are considered "more Swiss than the Swiss", same with the Tamil who arrived preceded by a wave of panic and nowadays are seen as having all the virtues of a proper Swiss. At the moment Balkan immigrants are not particularly appreciated but step by step, they will integrate and be integrated.