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You, me and PPV: CRO-ENG

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    Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
    Oh come on. I found Pickford shouting at Mandzukic as unpleasant as everyone else did, but the collision between them came as both were reaching and doing exactly what they should be. Mandzukic trying to get a shot in (which he did) and Pickford trying to save that shot (which he did). It was a completely blameless collision from both parties. Pickford's reaction afterwards wasn't but don't try and overegg this pudding
    He connected with Mandzukic's knee. As I said, no foul and no red card, and Pickford did try to pull out -- but it was a bit reckless, so not entirely blameless. So instead of shouting at Mandzukic, Pickford might have apologised.

    I realise that photos don't alway tell the full story, but Pickford's leg position doesn't suggest an excess of reckfulness.

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      Well, his foot is certainly much lower for than Croatia's goal.

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        Originally posted by G-Man View Post
        I realise that photos don't alway tell the full story,
        Indeed

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          Originally posted by Wouter D View Post
          Did you not see the manner in which Belgium adapted to every opponent this tournament? The Belgium that lined up against Brazil was quite a different beast from the Belgium in preceding games.
          Sorry if I didn't make myself clear Wouter, it wasn't the starting line-ups I was referring to but to make adjustments during the game itself. Croatia pushing Vrsaljko onto Ashley Young in the second half altered the dynamic of the game, yet England didn't respond to this at all (even bias Glenn spotted it and called it). Similarly, when Brazil brought on Douglas Costa and pushed Marcelo higher up they were hanging on at the end and Brazil had a few chances to equalize.

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            Tactics against Japan were also dubious. His players rescued him from the sack.

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              Originally posted by steveeeeeeeee View Post
              The English media are far from perfect, but other countries in Europe really struggle with the English culture of self-deprication, it's coming home being totally centered on decades of hope and failure, opposed to a belief that England deserve victory.
              To be honest I've never really thought of the English (unlike, say, the Scots) as particularly self-deprecating. The song itself might be meant as self-deprecating but the people I've heard braying it on the streets since the Sweden game have seemed anything but.

              Having said that, I'm not sure I agree with PPV that the arrogance and hubris of English pundits and journalists is a unique national trait. The French media is jingoistic beyond belief where the national team is concerned.

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                I'm no fan of England but I didn't think the English media were arrogant at all. It was all wide-eyed excitement that England actually did something in a tournament, hopeful that with a good draw and a cream-crackered Croatia side (who looked just that for much of the first half, let's be blunt) they could reach the final. It's coming home was harmless meme-y bantz, the idea that people thought the World Cup was theirs is just fatuous. I went to a brewery where close to a thousand people were watching the game. Nobody was upset or angry at the final whistle, just sad.

                Regional rivalries are one thing, I'm not demanding someone from Wales or Scotland support England, but some of the attempts to turn not supporting England into a performative example of moral superiority - their fans are bad, their media is arrogant, whatever - are just total rubbish at this point. England was a pleasant place to be for this World Cup, English fans were fine. The 200,000 Colombia fans signing a petition that the game was fixed was saltier shit than anything England fans have done this tournament.

                Originally posted by nmrfox View Post
                Despite his great interviews and waistcoat, Southgate still doesn't strike me as a particularly astute manager, a bit like Martinez. Both have decent teams to field but the art of adjustment to changes in the opposition seems lost to them
                How could Southgate have adjusted? England can only play one style with the squad they had in this tournament. I suppose you could argue Vardy should have come on sooner, but they probably should have taken Wilshere because nobody could hold on to the ball in the second half and he might have been useful.

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                  Agree with Fussbudget, lots of nuggets out there who would not know self-deprecation if it hit them on the face...On tuesday I went out to eat at the local spoon (which happens to be the best pub around where I live, I don't live in a posh area...), there was a small crowd of people watching the Belgium-France game and they seemed quite subdued when it finished, I gather realising France would be a rather hard beast to tame. I was about to leave when in comes a great big ponce, all tatoos, spiky hair, hours worth of tanning salon, shouting to someone comine out that it would be easy to beat France in the final. One of the party I was with, who never showed any kind of interest in football in the years I've known him was equally sanguine England would beat France in the final (notice at no point Croatia in the semis seemed to have been considered an issue). A bunch of "footix" as we call them in our French speaking parts...(and in France amongst proper football fans)

                  The one think I'm quite glad about that England out is that I won't have to hear inane conversations about the WC everywhere I go. It will be back to overhear stuff about Love Island....Otherwise, felt no reason to cheer yesterday, I'm a very mild ABE nowadays...

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                    https://www.theguardian.com/football...cup-semi-final

                    If the English media did any of this stuff they'd be crucified.

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                      I'd say the overall atmosphere in england has been much better than in 98, 02 or 06, the previous non-joke england world cup campaigns. Dunno if that's to do with a decade of failure tempering expectations and reining in some of he arrogance. There's still a fair bit of boorish bellendery that comes out when england are doing well, but personally I've found it all rather bearable (though not to the extent of fancying the pub for the big game)

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                        The tabloids are cunts everywhere so no cuntish reactions should surprise us.

                        Rio seems to have been a bad choice to have as a pundit unless it was a clever strategy to make Lineker look reasonable by comparison to the Golden Generation pricks. It's as if he was there as an illustration of what Southgate is trying to change culturally in the squad.

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                          My dad was very disappointed. He thought England might just do it.

                          He's 74. His faculties are beginning to come loose. He might not see another World Cup, or understand it if he's "here".

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                            Originally posted by Flynnie View Post
                            https://www.theguardian.com/football...cup-semi-final

                            If the English media did any of this stuff they'd be crucified.
                            Having misinterpreted (some of) the English preamble, I can see why the Croatian media might dine out on this. But if they think that they're playing 'the best football on the planet', they're in for a shock.

                            Croatia have been decent - they looked impressive during the groups, I'll concede - but in these knockouts they'd failed to press home their clear advantages in playing time until last night. On top of this, they've now played the equivalent of a game more than France and I suspect strongly that this will show them up big-time against a side that are clearly superior to England.

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                              Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                              Lest we imagine that hubris and egotism is exclusively a preserve of the English
                              https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1017334900884680704
                              Wow, you really found a reliable source there ol' man.

                              How about this instead of your bitterness.

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                                Oy, England, welcome to Croatia.
                                And make yourself at HOME!

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                                  Originally posted by Pietro Paolo Virdis View Post
                                  Wow, you really found a reliable source there ol' man.
                                  Well the source was Lovren himself. He might have a really powerful story and be a wonderful human being, but I don't think anyone (apart from Dejan Lovren it turns out) thinks that Dejan Lovren is one of the best defenders in the world. He's not the joke figure that some parts of the English media made him out to be after his first season at Liverpool, but he hasn't suddenly turned into Paolo Maldini.

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                                    And it's not bitterness I just really don't like massive egos. That's why this England team is bearable unlike its predecessors

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                                      Originally posted by nmrfox View Post
                                      Sorry if I didn't make myself clear Wouter, it wasn't the starting line-ups I was referring to but to make adjustments during the game itself. Croatia pushing Vrsaljko onto Ashley Young in the second half altered the dynamic of the game, yet England didn't respond to this at all (even bias Glenn spotted it and called it). Similarly, when Brazil brought on Douglas Costa and pushed Marcelo higher up they were hanging on at the end and Brazil had a few chances to equalize.
                                      Ah, yes, fair enough.

                                      Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                                      Tactics against Japan were also dubious. His players rescued him from the sack.
                                      I do not necessarily disagree with that statement, but would like to point out that two out of three Belgian goals in that match were scored by subbed-on players. This does not line up well with the general point about making adjustments during the game itself.

                                      Martinez' tactics during this tournament are a vast improvement over Wilmots' during the last two tournaments, and that improvement got Belgium to the semi finals of a World Cup, in the difficult half of the draw. I think Martinez deserves more credits for that than he generally gets on this forum.

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                                        Originally posted by Bruno
                                        I would take a broader view of "one of the best defenders in the world" out of respect to anyone playing and winning at that level, and in reaction against people calling him shit. There's a kind of ruthlessness to the implied "if you're not Maldini then STFU." Would I blow my own horn like that, no, but I'm not an international footballer who knows how hard it is to be one.
                                        Yeah alright, if "One of the best defenders in the world" means "in the top 200", then you might be right.

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                                          Originally posted by Wouter D View Post
                                          Ah, yes, fair enough.



                                          I do not necessarily disagree with that statement, but would like to point out that two out of three Belgian goals in that match were scored by subbed-on players. This does not line up well with the general point about making adjustments during the game itself.

                                          Martinez' tactics during this tournament are a vast improvement over Wilmots' during the last two tournaments, and that improvement got Belgium to the semi finals of a World Cup, in the difficult half of the draw. I think Martinez deserves more credits for that than he generally gets on this forum.
                                          Good points.

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                                            Originally posted by Flynnie View Post
                                            https://www.theguardian.com/football...cup-semi-final

                                            If the English media did any of this stuff they'd be crucified.
                                            That's AFTER the game.

                                            How hard can it be to grasp the difference?

                                            Really, what's the gigantic hurdle to understand that this was after the game, while the other was before the game.

                                            I give up. You'll not hear a single more word from me about it.

                                            We have a final to focus on.

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                                              Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                                              Well the source was Lovren himself. He might have a really powerful story and be a wonderful human being, but I don't think anyone (apart from Dejan Lovren it turns out) thinks that Dejan Lovren is one of the best defenders in the world. He's not the joke figure that some parts of the English media made him out to be after his first season at Liverpool, but he hasn't suddenly turned into Paolo Maldini.
                                              Did you happen to notice that in your picture the quotation marks were above the words and not around the words?

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                                                Originally posted by Pietro Paolo Virdis View Post
                                                Did you happen to notice that in your picture the quotation marks were above the words and not around the words?
                                                That's just a design thing, no? Are you saying that Lovren didn't say that? (Or that he was badly translated?) I mean ESPN is not a terrible source I'd say. Here's the same quote on RTE (another reasonably trustworthy source) https://www.rte.ie/sport/world-cup-2...-in-the-world/

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                                                  I can translate what he says here, ad hoc, and the other I've seen post game, but I have a feeling you don't really care.

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                                                    Yeah, you know. You win ad hoc.

                                                    First you're slamming me that I should focus on being happy not bring up English media. Then you bring up what media report about Lovren.

                                                    It's OK, I don't really care right now. I'm going out to get some air and enjoy this feeling I have in my entire body.

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