Should Be The Final? QF2 - BRZ-BEL

[Sean of the Shed]

Well Sweden are a better team without Ibrahimovic.

I'm almost certain Neymar would be better off without Brazil.

[Sean of the Shed]

Ha!

[EIM]

Yeah. Let's hear it for the little guy.

[EIM]

Is it not more likely that people the world over are just glory-devouring star-fuckers, as illustrated by the number of Barca and Real "fans" you meet all over the world. And the way you can't watch an armed revolution or military coup on BBC News without seeing someone in a 2009 Manchester United shirt? Fuck me, people even support PSG all over the place now. Not even people in Paris support PSG.

[Janik]

I thought the call on the pitch was penalty. The ref pointed to the spot.

I'm pretty sure he awarded a goal kick.

Really. At least that would make some sense. It looked to me like he'd given a penalty

It's kind of unhelpful that the way refs indicate a penalty is to point to the spot and the way they indicate goalkicks is to point to the corner of the goal area, given that from many angles these things are nearly in line with each other. Some other signal like would make sense for one of these. Sometimes it takes a body language read to work out what has been given, and in this case the ref is looking casual as if he has given something non-controversial like a goalkick. The other aspect is to check if he has whistle in his mouth, as he has to blow that to stop the game to give a penalty, whereas a goalkick can usually be given with just a signal as most of the time the game has stopped of it's own accord as the ball has clearly gone out of play. His whistle is in his hand on this one, which again implies he was giving the goalkick.

[jason voorhees]

I love Brasil. I love the Americas. I am sad they are finished in this World Cup.

I love Neymar. I am sad he will not be playing anymore in this World Cup.

But I love Jean-Marie Pfaff and Michel Georges Jean Ghislain Preud'homme and that Belgian restaurant Le Petit Abielle on 17th and 2nd in NYC serving the dope mussels with the high-powered Belgian ales.

So I tip my cap, and await this amazing semi-final between two awesome teams.

FRANCE BELGIUM INDEED.

[jason voorhees]

Just saw the de Bruyne goal. Wow.

Awesome, and Augusto's silky header was on that level.

[cantagalo]

Some belated thoughts. It was a really good game which could have gone either way.

Courtois, Hazard, De Bruyne and yes, Fellaini were great for Belgium. It hasn’t been mentioned on here but De Bruyne was on his own goal line at the start of the move for Belgium’s second goal,

I thought on balance it was a penalty on Gabriel Jesus but a difficult one to call. On another day Brazil would have got the break. Douglas Costa made a very positive impact when he came on and for those who are saying Brazil would have been better of without Neymar, perhaps they are forgetting the goals he scored and made against Mexico and the shot that Courtois tipped over the bar.

Anyway, it’s been a long day, I’m drunk and I have to wake up for the England game tomorrow morning.

[anton pulisov]

Quite possibly, in the same sense that Sweden are certainly better off without Ibra.

I'm not so sure. Zlatan did a lot of work for the team, whereas Neymar couldn't be arsed. I'm thinking of Sweden's 2014 qualification matches against Germany and Portugal.

I'm not sure where this received wisdom that Sweden is better off without Zlatan is coming from.

[Sean of the Shed]

Sorry, but this is some twisted bullshit logic to condemn Brazil and Brazil players again, and again, and again...

If you truly believe that, surely you should condemn the officials for law enforcement by reputation instead of by evidence?

And, by the way, I don't think that's what happened today. There were some calls that could have gone Brazil's way (the Jesus penalty in particular), and they didn't. That's normal. A bit strange in the VAR era and so on, but normal. Also, a completely normal result.

I thought it would go without saying that the ref should have adjudged foul play based on what he sees rather than reputation, but I guess not.
And are you saying that Brazil do not deserve condemnation for their behaviour? Who does if not?

[stefan]

I'm not so sure. Zlatan did a lot of work for the team, whereas Neymar couldn't be arsed. I'm thinking of Sweden's 2014 qualification matches against Germany and Portugal.

I'm not sure where this received wisdom that Sweden is better off without Zlatan is coming from.

Results?

Actually what we would have needed to be successful with Ibra was someone who could manage a team with one world-class player and ten cloggers. Neither Lagerbäck nor Hamren could. Lagerbäck didn't understand how to use him in his (Lagerbäck's) extremely defense-oriented system, and Hamren left the management to the great one himself.

So on the surface, it looks weird that the current set-up works so much better, but perhaps it's that much easier to make a hard-working balanced team out of 11 average journey-men. I very much doubt that Janne Andersson's method would work with Zlatan in the team. That's not to say that there is no method that would.

[Janik]

Sweden need only look across the water for another example of a team who improved without their clearly most talented player - Michael Laudrup spent Euro '92 on the beach, in self-imposed international retirement. Possibly the absence of the superstar helps by making everyone else step up rather than rely on the talisman to pull magic out of a hat. So expect a Messi-less Argentina to triumph in four years time.

[ad hoc]

The myth of the flowing football beautiful to watch Brazil is only matched by the myth that all over the world are idiots who believe that myth.

I know you see a lot of people wearing Brazil shirts just like you see a lot of people wearing Barcelona Real Madrid Chelsea Man Utd shirts (and Germany if you want another international team). But I honestly don't buy this idea that they're all sheep who buy into something virtually none of them have ever seen.

[Patrick Thistle]

Neymar rolling has been turned into a meme.

Maybe Brazil didn't influence the referee to be sceptical of their penalty claims. An alternate theory I've seen online is that they were neutered by "a tactical masterclass" by Roberto Martinez.

Which option is less embarrassing?

[EIM]

I'm just happy that you progressed from name-calling to sarcasm.

Stick around. I've no doubt the name-calling will return.

[SouthdownRebel]

Neymar rolling has been turned into a meme.

A personal favourite.

https://twitter.com/CBSSports/status/1014909386966347782

[Jon]

Germany in the final, wasn't it Jon?

Of course it was. Apologies for my idiocy.

[anton pulisov]

Sweden in Euro 2016 were very unlucky to lose against Italy and Belgium. They lost in the final phases against both. And it was Conte's Italy, who were very good and could have gone all the way in that tournament. Sure, Ireland out-qualified Sweden in that group, but only because Italy had assured themselves of winning the group, allowing themselves the luxury of fielding a B team against Ireland.

In the 2014 qualifiers Zlatan rallied his team from 4-0 down in Berlin against Germany back to 4-4. This was Germany at the peak of their powers in their World Cup winning campaign. I remember him overturning a 1-0 deficit in Dublin with a brilliant all-round display. In the playoffs they came up against Ronaldo's Portugal, in a match where Ronaldo was probably playing the best football of his life. And Zlatan was there, matching Ronaldo, and Sweden were unlucky to go out against Portugal. Zlatan was also defending corners in that match like a boss. Never seen Neymar skiing that.

So they got results with Zlatan. But they were in a more difficult group in 2016 than this tournament. And were unlucky in 2016. This time around the group was a tiny bit easier and there's been a bit of luck (deflected goal v Swiss). Them's are the breaks in football.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Neymar is basically the Michael Jackson of football isn't he? Extraordinary talent, combined with a monstrous dad, and an appalling personality created largely by the way that he's treated and indulged by everyone around him. I thought that he should have had a penalty on the stroke of half time, but after that Costa rica debacle, and the mexico fiasco, we're going to have to see shin through skin before he gets another penalty.

I don't understand why Brazil stuck with Gabriel Jesus as a targetman. He's a really good player, but he's only 5'6" and 10 stone. Firmino was clearly a miles better choice for the job. Gabriel Jesus would be a great alternative to Neymar, or as a second striker. I suspect the hand of Neymar in that selection.

[EIM]

"Neymar is basically the Michael Jackson of football isn't he?"

Does he know Macaulay Culkin an all?

[G-Man]

Sorry, but this is some twisted bullshit logic to condemn Brazil and Brazil players again, and again, and again...

If you truly believe that, surely you should condemn the officials for law enforcement by reputation instead of by evidence?

And, by the way, I don't think that's what happened today. There were some calls that could have gone Brazil's way (the Jesus penalty in particular), and they didn't. That's normal. A bit strange in the VAR era and so on, but normal. Also, a completely normal result.

The final paragraph redeems those that precede it. Surely it's quite predictable that players who have a reputation of conning the referees sometimes don't get the rub of the green. Take CRonaldo, whose reputation for diving and play-acting goes back to his earliest days at Man Utd: he got yellow cards for simulation even when he was fouled.

Yesterday at some point Neymar was fouled. He was about to launch into his usual theatrics, but a fraction of a second into it he abandoned the act. I presume he had been told to stop it because it has shown to be counterproductive, aside from being embarrassing to himself and his team.

[G-Man]

The "plastic Brazil fans" one I found interesting. This might be true from a Euro/US/first-world view.

But at the same time you'll find, especially now that teh interwebs / social meeja have reached mid-to-low-income people in most countries, that Brazil enjoy a lot of support in countries like Bangladesh / Pakistan / Syria / etc. Heck, there where even reports of celebrations in Homs (!) after Brazil's win against Mexico.

I don't think it's only because of the Nike marketing dollar. I think it is, to a large extent, that those guys feel represented by a bunch of black, brown, mixed guys who grew up in a fucked-up country slugging it out with the big players on the big stage. Let's face it, for the last 30 years, Brazil has been the only non-European team to win any major tournament where European teams were also involved. So, if you want to support someone, by the time they are lifting the trophy, it's either Brazil or one of the rich boys.

There is something to it, but I think that's only part of the story. As has been pointed out, the past success and the marketing hype based on it plays a huge role. Living in one of the "POC" countries that has no strong national side, I have observed that most people choose national teams randomly (success, favourite players, colour of the kit). Some choose according to family background or other personal affiliation (a friend or colleague, having been to that country on a holiday), and some choose by the demographics you refer to.

But, I have noticed, in South Africa - a country not dissimilar to Brazil -- those who choose by the latter tend to back France and Belgium, as countries that have players of African background.

In SA, I don't encounter a disproportionate amount of people who support Brazil.

[Satchmo Distel]

Neymar looks more like Little Richard.

I'm not sure what Neymar adds to this team. You can see clearly how Lukaku and De Bruyne benefit Belgium and how Kane elevates England, but Neymar? Not really.

Tite is surely tits up as the national coach. Brazil looked better after they ditched his Plan A, whatever it was. The players he brought off the bench should have been on earlier.

[Satchmo Distel]

Brazil has spent a lot of its past in denial about its African ingredients and I wonder if Africans sense that.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Their tournament fans in the stadium are typically whiter than me, and I'm grey.