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    Trophyless major football nations

    Now that Chile and Portugal have got off the mark within 12 months of each other, there aren't too many footballing powers without a major title to their name - Hungary, perhaps, unless the Olympic crown was considered significant at that period. Otherwise, Belgium and Ecuador seem the most notable potless contenders.

    #2
    Trophyless major football nations

    If you aren't counting the Olympics (which is at best debatable, especially before the expansion of the Euros), I would say that Croatia, Poland, Serbia and Sweden have a better case than Ecuador.

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      #3
      Trophyless major football nations

      They never competed alone, but Great Britain won three Olympic golds in the early 20th century

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        #4
        Trophyless major football nations

        The 1900 winners were Upton Park FC, an amateur club from London. In 1908 and 1912 the England Amateur team won the gold medals.

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          #5
          Trophyless major football nations

          Yeah, my vote goes to Scotland.

          Taking it continent by continent (or rather, confederation by confederation), I'd say Senegal for Africa, Ecuador almost by default for South America (they and Venezuela are the only CONMEBOL nations not to have won the Copa América), India (at least in terms of the length of footballing tradition) for Asia and... well I'm not really sure for North America. I would guess T&T or Jamaica, no?

          Obviously some of those countries have won 'lesser' international trophies though. I've just looked for ones who've never won their main continental trophy.

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            #6
            Trophyless major football nations

            Sam wrote: Yeah, my vote goes to Scotland.

            Taking it continent by continent (or rather, confederation by confederation), I'd say Senegal for Africa, Ecuador almost by default for South America (they and Venezuela are the only CONMEBOL nations not to have won the Copa América), India (at least in terms of the length of footballing tradition) for Asia and... well I'm not really sure for North America. I would guess T&T or Jamaica, no?

            Obviously some of those countries have won 'lesser' international trophies though. I've just looked for ones who've never won their main continental trophy.
            Scotland has the population, roughly, of Colorado. Apart from the time when they were one of the only football nations, how were they ever a "major" football nation?

            Both T&T and Jamaica have won the Caribbean Cup, however.

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              #7
              Trophyless major football nations

              Their claim rests on their role in growing the game, and being the best team in the world during a period when only a handful of countries played it.

              But they have never emerged from the group stages of a major tournament and have only qualified for 8/20 World Cups and 2/15 Euros.

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                #8
                Trophyless major football nations

                ursus arctos wrote: Their claim rests on their role in growing the game, and being the best team in the world during a period when only a handful of countries played it.

                But they have never emerged from the group stages of a major tournament and have only qualified for 8/20 World Cups and 2/15 Euros.
                Right. But it's been a while since they were a legitimate contender.

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                  #9
                  Trophyless major football nations

                  Well, you can say that about Hungary as well. Just as you can say that a country like Senegal's footballing history is virtually all post 1980.

                  It is very difficult to answer the question without first agreeing on what criteria are to be used.

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                    #10
                    Trophyless major football nations

                    ursus arctos wrote: Well, you can say that about Hungary as well. Just as you can say that a country like Senegal's footballing history is virtually all post 1980.

                    It is very difficult to answer the question without first agreeing on what criteria are to be used.
                    They must never have won a continental or global international trophy, but they must still have a strong footballing tradition (which would rule out India and China, among others).

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                      #11
                      Trophyless major football nations

                      You don't give any credit to the footballing tradition in Kolkata and East Bengal?

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                        #12
                        Trophyless major football nations

                        Hungary, perhaps, unless the Olympic crown was considered significant at that period.
                        Even if that wasn't, the Dr Gero Cup (which Hungary won the 1953 version of) certainly was - it was a de facto European Championship of its time, put alongside the Home Internationals. And Hungary came to England and stuffed them.

                        The Dr Gero Cup (although it wasn't called that in the 1930s) was also won by Austria's Wunderteam of 1930-32, who beat Italy, Czechoslovakia and Hungary to win it. Again, a triumph worthy of equivalence to winning a Euros, as Italy and the Czechs went on to contest the World Cup final two years later.

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                          #13
                          Trophyless major football nations

                          ursus arctos wrote: You don't give any credit to the footballing tradition in Kolkata and East Bengal?
                          The national team has never achieved a great deal though, either in World Cup qualifying or the Asian Cup.

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                            #14
                            Trophyless major football nations

                            Thanks for the clarification.

                            Details on the competition that Rogin mentions

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                              #15
                              Trophyless major football nations

                              ursus arctos wrote: Thanks for the clarification.

                              Details on the competition that Rogin mentions
                              .

                              Not relevant to the thread of course, but brings to mind its club equivalent, of sorts.

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                                #16
                                Trophyless major football nations

                                Reed John wrote:
                                Originally posted by ursus arctos
                                Their claim rests on their role in growing the game, and being the best team in the world during a period when only a handful of countries played it.

                                But they have never emerged from the group stages of a major tournament and have only qualified for 8/20 World Cups and 2/15 Euros.
                                Right. But it's been a while since they were a legitimate contender.
                                You could say the same of England, but no-one's going to dispute it's a major football nation. Scotland played an enormous part in shaping how the game has been played for the last 150 years, and many of the Brits who exported football to the world were Scottish (the father of Brazilian football, Charles William Miller, was born in Brazil to Scottish parents, albeit he learnt the game in England at boarding school; the father of Argentine football, Alexander Watson Hutton, was a Scot born in Scotland who introduced the game to the country via a stint working at St. Andrew's High School in Buenos Aires, albeit he was unpatriotic enough to later found his own school called English High School). Of course it's a major football nation.

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                                  #17
                                  Trophyless major football nations

                                  It would be pretty churlish to argue that the Home Internationals weren't a major trophy up until about the 1930s. And Scotland won almost all of those in the 1920s. In fact, the only times they didn't, Wales did.

                                  It became pretty apparent that once the 1930s kicked in, and Austria and Italy were coming over here and giving us a bloody good game and Uruguay and Argentina were bossing the Olympics, that we were no longer the be all and end all of things. But I'd say prior to 1930 at least, the Home Internationals count as a major.

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                                    #18
                                    Trophyless major football nations

                                    Scotland's national team had one of the strongest squads in the world as late as the early 1980s. But they missed out on participation in the first few World Cups and the first two European Championships because of their FA's stupidity. They also went off to the 1954 and 1958 World Cups badly prepared for the same reason.

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                                      #19
                                      Trophyless major football nations

                                      Scotland also refused to go to Brazil in 1950 - even though they'd qualified - and lost out on qualification to 1966 in England largely because English clubs refused to release their Scottish players for midweek qualifying ties.

                                      The 1966 side, in particular, would have been interesting. Their B side went out in qualifying to Italy, who famously lost to North Korea. Scotland, in those finals, probably would not have done so, and might have ended up playing England in the semi-finals.

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                                        #20
                                        Trophyless major football nations

                                        Rogin the Armchair fan wrote: once the 1930s kicked in, ... and Uruguay and Argentina were bossing the Olympics, that we were no longer the be all and end all of things. But I'd say prior to 1930 at least, the Home Internationals count as a major.
                                        Your timeline's a bit off. Uruguay won the 1924 and '28 Olympic Football Tournaments. Their final against Argentina was the '28 one. That was a big part of the reason they were chosen to host the first World Cup, in 1930. There was no football at the '32 games, and by '36 the World Cup had taken precedence. Neither Uruguay nor Argentina sent a football team to the Berlin games, the game in both countries having turned professional in the interim since the 1928 games (1931 in Argentina, 1932 in Uruguay).

                                        So... I mean, the Home Internationals were obviously inferior to the Olympics prior to 1930, and equally obviously rendered largely irrelevant by the birth of the World Cup, although the home nations took a long time to recognise that fact of course. Equally, though, they were obviously a major event in the really early footballing world prior to the first World War, when Scotland and England passed the title between them on an almost unbroken annual basis. I'm sure if we include sub-continental and regional competitions there aren't any major nations without a trophy of some description.

                                        I'm still voting for Scotland as most major (majorest?) football nation without a continental, World Cup or (meaningful era) OFT title, though.

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                                          #21
                                          Trophyless major football nations

                                          ursus arctos wrote: Well, you can say that about Hungary as well. Just as you can say that a country like Senegal's footballing history is virtually all post 1980.

                                          It is very difficult to answer the question without first agreeing on what criteria are to be used.
                                          I was thinking it was more like "always a bridesmaid" teams like pre-2004 Red Sox or Holland (minus 1988).

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                                            #22
                                            Trophyless major football nations

                                            Sam wrote:
                                            Originally posted by Reed John
                                            Originally posted by ursus arctos
                                            Their claim rests on their role in growing the game, and being the best team in the world during a period when only a handful of countries played it.

                                            But they have never emerged from the group stages of a major tournament and have only qualified for 8/20 World Cups and 2/15 Euros.
                                            Right. But it's been a while since they were a legitimate contender.
                                            You could say the same of England, but no-one's going to dispute it's a major football nation. Scotland played an enormous part in shaping how the game has been played for the last 150 years, and many of the Brits who exported football to the world were Scottish (the father of Brazilian football, Charles William Miller, was born in Brazil to Scottish parents, albeit he learnt the game in England at boarding school; the father of Argentine football, Alexander Watson Hutton, was a Scot born in Scotland who introduced the game to the country via a stint working at St. Andrew's High School in Buenos Aires, albeit he was unpatriotic enough to later found his own school called English High School). Of course it's a major football nation.
                                            Yeah, except England won that one time. Same with Holland. And maybe USSR?

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                                              #23
                                              Trophyless major football nations

                                              Yugoslavia before 1992, Poland, Belgium. All have semi final pedigrees the Scots lack. USSR won in 1960 but there are caveats such as Spain pulling out. Croatia lost narrowly to 1998 & 2016 winners.

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                                                #24
                                                Trophyless major football nations

                                                Rogin the Armchair fan wrote: It would be pretty churlish to argue that the Home Internationals weren't a major trophy up until about the 1930s. And Scotland won almost all of those in the 1920s. In fact, the only times they didn't, Wales did.

                                                It became pretty apparent that once the 1930s kicked in, and Austria and Italy were coming over here and giving us a bloody good game and Uruguay and Argentina were bossing the Olympics, that we were no longer the be all and end all of things. But I'd say prior to 1930 at least, the Home Internationals count as a major.
                                                Uruguay bossed the Olympics in the 1920s.

                                                The problem with the Home Internationals, the Central European International Cup and the even 1960 and 1964 editions of the European Championship is that they excluded countries that might have posed a challenge.

                                                While there is no doubt that the Austrian team of the early '30s would have swept all before them, other winners might have struggled against sides further north-west. Italy, winners in the late '20s lost at home to Germany in 1929. I don't know their record against Spain or France or Finland (then a good side), but there has to be an asterisk next to their name.

                                                And to say that a contest comprising four countries is in any way analogous to a continental tournament, never mind a world cup, is preposterous. It was a regional competition, though its winners might have won international tournaments, had they been able to compete. Having said that, South American football in the 1920s was streets ahead of Europe.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Trophyless major football nations

                                                  Scotland have never even qualified out of their group at a tournament.

                                                  Pretty hard to win a tournament when you can't even make it to the knock out rounds.

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