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    Next England Boss

    Like who, realistically?

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      Next England Boss

      I'd have gone for Slaven Bilic.

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        Next England Boss

        The thing is it's usually more experienced managers.
        Going towards the end of their careers.

        There was a rumour Chris Coleman was sounded out. Even if he'd wanted it, you'd have to be a tough old cookie to deal with all those egos and the seemingly diminished social skills?

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          Next England Boss

          Mumpo wrote: I'd have gone for Slaven Bilic.
          That would have been a very smart choice.

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            Next England Boss

            But why would he take that job when West Ham are possibly going to try to match the EPL elite with a new stadium and the most-season ticket holders in London plus one of Europe's most exciting dead-ball players?
            Why tarnish his cv with taking such a poison chalice?

            If he was ten years older or English maybe, I could understand.

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              Next England Boss

              Once the decision has been taken (which I assume it was) that this manager was going to be English, then who'd have been a better appointment? We're going to have a bunch of players coming through in the next few years who are the start of, probably, a more technically able generation than previous ones. But the level of coaching remains dreadful. The fact that Allardyce isn't a ridiculous appointment is pretty damning, and underlines that the problems are still higher up.

              The other extreme would be the Argentine national team, who have any number of brilliant candidates at present, none of whom are willing to take the job because the AFA are such an astonishing mess.

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                Next England Boss

                The Express and Star (aka the Swastika, local West Midlands daily and UKIP house journal) have been enjoying themselves. He's 'Little Sammy' around here- not because everyone in the Wren's Nest Estate is seven foot tall, they just found a couple of pensioners who used to babysit when his Mum was at work.

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                  Next England Boss

                  G-Man wrote:
                  Originally posted by GCostanza
                  Originally posted by G-Man

                  I can't get my head around this appointment. England has so much talent at the moment that I'd see them as reasonable contenders at the next World Cup. But there is no way that Sam Allardyce is going to win the World Cup.
                  Presumably you are being sarcastic.
                  Not at all. At a time when there is no invincible side in the world, England has the young talent to make a very good team. Not the best in the world, but one that could go far, but only with a class coach (and I say that as a full-paid up member of the AEB).
                  But this is exactly the attitude England need to move away from; that a world class coach will somehow magic a trophy from supposed world class players. I've mentioned it before, in my opinion Chris Coleman is a poor to mediocre club manager, but he did better with Wales than any all-star England manager has since Venables. On personal level, Coleman certainly had the ability to manage the Welsh squad, understand the group and get the most out of.

                  Also, look at Fernando Santos for Portugal. Made his name at Porto thanks to Jardel being able to head goals from any ball crossed into the box. Then went to Sporting and Benfica and failed colossally because his tactics are one dimensional. His time in Greece makes him more defensively minded, but he's still a one dimensional manager. However, simple tactics and a firm hand are exactly what Portugal needed after the ever changing formations and experimentations of Bento and Quieroz.

                  So, Big Sam is a good appointment. We go in with realistic expectations on success, his tactics will be straightforward for players to understand. He has his favourite players who he'll stick with, he'll be a strong leader.

                  I personally feel it's a great time to be England manager. Hodgson has done some excellent work bringing players through, but wasn't strong enough to drop Rooney and pick his best 11. The players are there and expectations are low, it's hard to not meet expectations.

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                    Next England Boss

                    the sausage/allardyce thing is obviously another made up quote.

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                      Next England Boss

                      But neither Coleman nor Santos have a record of sustained success on international level. They are not necessarily the best examples in support of Allardyce's appointment.

                      Jogi Löw is the reference point you might want. But then, is Allardyce a Jogi Löw?

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                        Next England Boss

                        Portugal had a far better record than England in the 20 years before these Euros. They have better players. OTOH when it looked like Portugal would meet England in France, it did not look like an easy game for the Portuguese. Only in hindsight does it becomes obvious Portugal would have sliced through England.

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                          Next England Boss

                          Not sure what you mean by sustained success on international level. For club or country? And is success measured in silverware or punching above weight?

                          Santos did well in CL with Porto, and then did well with Greece in WC.

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                            Next England Boss

                            Satchmo Distel wrote: Portugal had a far better record than England in the 20 years before these Euros. They have better players. OTOH when it looked like Portugal would meet England in France, it did not look like an easy game for the Portuguese. Only in hindsight does it becomes obvious Portugal would have sliced through England.
                            Not far better, over 20 years (starting 1996) they were marginally better in tournament finals. They consistently struggled to qualify for them.

                            There's also no reason to believe they would have sliced through England. Hungary were far better than Portugal in the game before the last 16. Santos had fortune at times, most notably the injury to Danilo Pereira, forcing the introduction of an inspired William Carvalho's, then Moutinho playing so shit against Hungary he had no option but to give Renato Sanches an extended run.

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                              Next England Boss

                              Portugal have reached six semi finals to England's zero since Euro 96.

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                                Next England Boss

                                Satchmo Distel wrote: Portugal have reached six semi finals to England's zero since Euro 96.
                                Zero only makes sense if England failed to qualify for all tournaments and achieved nothing. However 1 SF, 4 QFs and 3 last 16 is hardly a far lesser record than Portugal, a team who were humiliated in 2014 and 2002.

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                                  Next England Boss

                                  Not only that, but 2 of Portugal's SFs were victories against England on penalties, one in Portugal.

                                  Fine margins.

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                                    Next England Boss

                                    Yeah, but six semi-finals to none is six semi-finals to none. Portugal have had a clear edge on England (a much bigger and richer country) for a good while, and now they've won a trophy as well.

                                    I wouldn't say Portugal were "humiliated" in Brazil. The Germany game was obviously a disaster because of Pepe's stupidity, but they finished the group with more points than they got in Euro 2016. It was a bastard of a group as well.

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                                      Next England Boss

                                      If portugal were humiliated in 2002 and 2014, what happened to england in 2000, 2008 and 2014?

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                                        Next England Boss

                                        England haven't beaten Portugal in a competitive game in 50 years, now, a run that extends to our last six games.

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                                          Next England Boss

                                          Someone said on another thread that, with pretty much every successful country, the manager, the players, the supporters and we pretty much know sort of formation, tactics and style they are going to play and this has probably been the case for, at least, a decade if not more. England, however, haven't been like that for, at least, a couple of decades. Even Wales have a tried and tested formula for successful play that will mean that, at least for another qualifying campaign, we will know what our team will probably be and how they will play.

                                          Allardyce will probably return this, to an extent, and it may not even be the attritional route one style football that he is pilloried for. However, on the assumption that Allardyce will probably only last 6-8 years absolute max unless they win a trophy (which I very much doubt they will), the situation will probably swing back again as another manager comes in.

                                          This is why the debacle of St George's Park hits hard. There just isn't an overarching philosophy of football throughout the ages in English football. Any progressive coach coming in faces the real possibility of trying to get English players to play in a style that is completely alien to how they have been brought through the U21s, U18s and younger and trying to stick a square peg in a round hole. The players and coaches have to be working in the same direction.

                                          A lot has been said about Eric Dier also seemingly having no clue as well even thought he came through the Portuguese system but this was more probably due to a particular lack of firm ideas about team selection, tactics, formation and style of play with Hodgson.

                                          Whatever the tactics, formation and selection, a team is going to better when they have trained with it, understand it and have clear ideas of the aims and objectives for the team and themselves. Another issue that has been brought up is how the Welsh players have broadly been brought through the same club academies as the English players and performed better. Quite simply, this is because the Welsh players have been playing pretty much the same style, virtually the same formation and even similar-ish team selections for a fair few campaigns now.

                                          If you can maintain that consistency, the team is going to be more confident in themselves and each other and the manager especially if you start getting good results. Even if Allardyce were to come in, revert back to a fairly brutal route one and drill the players in their positions and responsibilities, he could probably get England back to the quarter finals with the add chance of a semi final with this team.

                                          To actually win trophies and keep on winning them, however, you really have to have the right formation, tactics, style of play and foundation of technique that comes from an overarching philosophy of coaching from junior football up.

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                                            Next England Boss

                                            I don't get the "Wales are a shining example" rhetoric. England dominated and beat a pretty poor and negative Wales in Euro 2016. The Belgium game was a night to remember, the England game was clearly one to forget.

                                            As for Portugal, I watched them play more than most Portuguese people between 2003 and 2012 and they were a constant shambles in qualifying for all major tournaments except this one and rarely impressed in the tournaments they qualified for, even the tournament they won. The only convincing Portugal victories over serious opposition I can think of in major tournaments are England in 2000 and Holland in 2004.

                                            England are not significantly worse than Portugal. Having lived and experienced Portuguese football and the media reaction to it, it has more low points than England and far more poorly run. However, England has a massive issue in as much as it expects success in major tournaments, whereas Portugal simply expect their presence. Once there, Portugal try to win by hook or by crook, whereas England seem to believe they must play incredibly attractive football by world class players who behave like valiant gentlemen on the pitch at all times. Pepe could never be an English man even if he were one.

                                            There's an awful lot of fortune in major tournaments, Portugal demonstrated not only the ability to capitalise on it this year, but to plan on capitalising it. They had their chance and they took it, but they're not a model to follow, nor are Wales.

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                                              Next England Boss

                                              This is really beginning to sound like sour grapes, chaps.

                                              I'm not sure a country with 1/20th the population of England, where football has serious competition as the main sport and which has no real professional league of it's own can ever really match it for under-achievement.

                                              I'd agree that Wales current success is probably something of a one-off and it can't be used as any kind of model for England, though.

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                                                Next England Boss

                                                Defensive minded wrote: I agree about Wales. This was the first major tournament they qualified for for ages. They have been serious under-achievers, even worse than England
                                                If they are, England aren't the best comparison. Croatia or Denmark would be better, on population size and other factors.

                                                I think Stevetc. may underplay the Gary Player doctrine- the harder Portugal practice, the luckier they get

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                                                  Next England Boss

                                                  Borracho wrote: Yeah, but six semi-finals to none is six semi-finals to none. Portugal have had a clear edge on England (a much bigger and richer country) for a good while, and now they've won a trophy as well.

                                                  I wouldn't say Portugal were "humiliated" in Brazil. The Germany game was obviously a disaster because of Pepe's stupidity, but they finished the group with more points than they got in Euro 2016. It was a bastard of a group as well.
                                                  6 semi-finals to 1.

                                                  2 of the 6 were achieved by beating England on penalties. So, we're talking 2 penalty kicks away from being 4 semi-finals to 3. Fine margins, not something to damn the past two decades of English football with.

                                                  I'm not trying to defend England or Portugal. I'm just trying to highlight the attitude to the England football team is utterly warped from all angles. Some believe the team are world beaters without direction, others believe the team are phenomenally sh*t even with direction. Whereas if the English public would just let the team develop, wait for a season of good international performances before proclaiming a saviour in an England shirt, allow managers to build teams that suit them and not the media - the team could maybe play some football and not humiliate itself like it did this year.

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                                                    Next England Boss

                                                    That's going to take a lot longer than a season.

                                                    Agree with much of your other observations though.

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