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'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

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    'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

    OK, so Spain and Italy were 1 and 2 here (or 2 and 1) and Croatia were morally No. 5. Does this wipe out the utter direness of those Irish displays and let Trap and the boys off the hook?

    To put it another way, does the above mean Ireland were not the worst team at Euro 2012?

    #2
    'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

    Been done.

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      #3
      'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

      Which is why I started the thread, to query that revisionism.

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        #4
        'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

        satchmo76 wrote: OK, so Spain and Italy were 1 and 2 here (or 2 and 1) and Croatia were morally No. 5. Does this wipe out the utter direness of those Irish displays and let Trap and the boys off the hook?

        To put it another way, does the above mean Ireland were not the worst team at Euro 2012?
        No. Just that they played some good sides.

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          #5
          'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

          oh we were horrendous. It was actually embarrassing how bad we were. It was horrible to see that happen to shay given, damien duff, and richie dunne. We got drawn in a horrible group, but it just meant that we were horribly exposed.

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            #6
            'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

            I saw Roy Keane worked into a montage at the end of the final, muttering darkly about how "we shouldn't be there just to enjoy the bloody singalong".

            Reckon the FAI will swallow enough pride to appoint him manager one day?

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              #7
              'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

              Dunno, he really hates Delaney, the head of the FAI (but he's not alone there). Mind you, he really fell out with Quinn in Saipan but Quinn later made him manager at Sunderland. But Quinn is a genuine top player that Keane respects as a player, and Quinn is a good diplomat. Delaney is a bottom-feeder with no diplomatic skills. Don't see it happening.

              I think the biggest problem with having Keane as manager is the media. There is a real scumbag anti-Keane element within the Irish media that feed off of Roy Keane quotes and try to stir up controversy where there is none. Most of the anti-McCarthy people (myself included) have mellowed over the years, but the anti-Keane crowd seem to have this righteous hatred towards the man, even now, 10 years later.

              John Giles or Liam Brady could have just as likely have said, "Look, we want to win, let's not just go along for the sing-song," and nobody would have given a shit. But when Roy Keane says it every scummy hack in Ireland jumps on it. So in the current environment he couldn't be manager, no.

              In my opinion he'd be a good choice for manager. There's a crop of players coming through that grew up worshipping him as a god, and the players he fell out with are on their way out. The problem with Keane at club level is that he tends to overtrain his players over the course of the season, but at international level that's difficult to do. Maybe he's suited for international management. Manager Roy is probably too intense to put up with as a player for a whole season long, but quick doses of it during international matches is probably just about right.

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                #8
                'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                Jesus christ.

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                  #9
                  'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                  No, no. Ireland were crap.

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                    #10
                    'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                    Yes, complete rubbish.

                    But the fans are getting their award. That was their agenda all along, to look good on the big stage. There would have been no 20 rounds of Fields of Athenry at Lansdowne Road with the team trailing 4-0.

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                      #11
                      'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                      The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: oh we were horrendous. It was actually embarrassing how bad we were. It was horrible to see that happen to shay given, damien duff, and richie dunne. We got drawn in a horrible group, but it just meant that we were horribly exposed.
                      I thought Duff was the only player that played well.

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                        #12
                        'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                        Imagine an Ireland game attended by 50,000 Bryanieks. It would be like a very, very elaborate re-enacting of that John Cage record, except it would be 90-odd minutes long instead of 4 minutes and 33 seconds.

                        I can't for the life of me figure out why more people don't want a sociopath who was last seen doing his damnedest to pull Ipswich Town into the third tier of English football as Ireland's next manager. Curse that infernal Dublin 4 media.

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                          #13
                          'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                          I was pulling like hell for them, but aside from the St. Ledger back/shoulder/neck goal, it was painful watching.

                          Duff did do his best, but he might as well have not bothered.

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                            #14
                            'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                            The team were rubbish and the fans singing was off-key.

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                              #15
                              'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                              Keane will never make a good manager. He is the ultimate 'black and white' individual, with an inability to see shades of grey in people and their actions.

                              He showed it in his comments about the fans singing. He could have interpreted it as fans displaying their commitment to the team, win, lose or draw. But in Keane's head it's 'team losing + fans singing = only there for the craic'.
                              He showed it in his comments after Keith Andrews interview after the Spain game when Andrews acknowledged, after prompting from the interviewer, that Spain were probably the best team he's played against, and in Keane's mind this means that the team knew they were beaten before the game had even started.
                              He's showed it many times in his comments about players laughing and joking in and around match day - he always sees this as a lack of commitment and application, when most would acknowledge it as some people's way of dealing with pre-match nerves.

                              He'll never make a good manager.

                              As for Ireland, no manager with our squad of players was getting the team out of that group, and Long instead of Cox, McLean instead of Cox/McGeady, Gibson instead of Whelan/Andrews is just splitting hairs. Why it went from being usually competitive against the top sides to getting a pasting in every game was that our senior players who have always been reliable were downright awful - Given & O'Shea in particular.

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                                #16
                                'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                                Keane is great. But you're right. He'll never make a manager. He's an actual socio path. I fucking love him.

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                                  #17
                                  'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                                  "Listen, the supporters want to see the team do a lot better and not giving daft goals away like that."

                                  "Let's change that attitude towards Irish support. Listen, they want to see the team winning as well, let's not kid ourselves. I know that we're a small country and we're up against it, but let's not just go along for the sing-song every now and again."

                                  Oh my, how controversial! Won't somebody please think of the children! Please, cover my ears so I don't have to listen to this socio-path!

                                  Comments like that are exactly why he would make a good manager and not a cuddly TV pundit who is not supposed to say anything. To him these comments are totally normal, because it's exactly what Ferguson or Clough, a pair of socio-paths, would have shouted at him. Or even any GAA manager at youth level.

                                  His comments are so run of the mill it's unbelievable and everyone is running around feigning outrage.

                                  Then you get bullshit journalism like this.

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                                    #18
                                    'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                                    I love the fact that you left in the "Listen..." in both quotes.

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                                      #19
                                      'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                                      Listen, I actually left out some of them.

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                                        #20
                                        'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                                        Bryaniek wrote: Comments like that are exactly why he would make a good manager and not a cuddly TV pundit who is not supposed to say anything.
                                        Keane said: "On a night we got beaten in the cup by Luton, the staff came in and said, ‘Clive Clarke has had a heart attack at Leicester'.

                                        "I said, ‘Is he OK? I'm shocked they found one, you could never tell by the way he plays'.
                                        What kind of pansy wouldn't run through walls for such a man?

                                        Keane would be a calamitous choice for Ireland manager. Ferguson, Clough and Shankly all knew or know of the value of praising players, not just driving them to their mental and physical limits as if they'd signed up for the armed forces. Keane has no understanding of this. Keane genuinely cannot deal with the fact that most of the players he's had to deal with are just not as good as him and that's not a crime.

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                                          #21
                                          'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                                          Keane's inter-personal skills are probably not good enough to be a successful manager at any decent level. He doesn't seem to have any concept of frequency-dependency as a phenomenon. Eventually the invariant 'angry bastard' persona/stance will become so much 'white noise'.

                                          But I've enjoyed him as a pundit – at least he has a bit of liveliness - unlike the ranks of the living brain-dead.

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                                            #22
                                            'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                                            Keane would be a disaster of a manager.

                                            If you look at the managers who have been very successful over a period of time, most of them are essentially master psychologists. Ferguson, wenger, mourinho, and without going through a long list I'll just say Trap and leave it there. These are all highly intelligent, driven, capable people, who would have been an enormous success in virtually any other walk of life.

                                            These people are master manipulators. (not necessarily in a bad way) They understand how to get a player to do what they want to do. They can put themselves in that players position, and say the right thing to him.

                                            Keane simply doesn't seem to put himself in the other person's position. For all of his other attributes, he has a near total lack of empathy, and that is an insurmountable obstacle for any would be manager.

                                            Sheer undiluted, terrifying rage is a powerful tool in any manager's arsenal, however it is only one interpersonal approach, and one that should be used sparingly. It is also one that should only be used entirely cold, i.e. the manager has to be entirely in control when using it, otherwise it can become seriously counter productive. I don't think that roy is always in control of his anger.

                                            That and he's not much of a coach, or a judge of player, or a tactician. I think he should stick with the TV punditry. We need a resource maximizing manager. Someone who will scour the english leagues, watching every irish qualified player. Get them all on board, and organize the team in an effective way. Roy keane is not the answer. I wouldn't mind giving kerr another go. There's no-one left from his last time in charge, and the available squad is filled with impressionable players who are just dying to play for ireland.

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                                              #23
                                              'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                                              The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: We need a resource maximizing manager. Someone who will scour the english leagues, watching every irish qualified player. Get them all on board, and organize the team in an effective way
                                              Wouldn't you be better scouring the German/ Portuguese/ Spanish/ Italian leagues for the next Barry O'Mhaolatelli?

                                              the available squad is filled with impressionable players who are just dying to play for ireland
                                              Allegedly Messrs McClean and Gibson aren't. Although only in the Belly Laugh, so no need to get too worried.

                                              It seems they weren't too pleased at being ignored for a month by a master manipulator who can't actually speak their language. No gags please.

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                                                #24
                                                'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                                                James mcClean wants to play for Ireland more than just about anyone on earth, other than perhaps james mcCarthy. He's just raging at the way he was treated by Trap, and he's far from the only one.

                                                There was a press conference after the Croatia game, and it was trap and mcClean, and when trap was asked why he didn't bring on mcClean and he said that you can't expect mcClean to change a game at this level. It was an incredibly crass thing to say, particularly when the player was sitting beside him.

                                                After the tournament he was asked how he felt it went, and he said "A shambles, and you can quote me on that." I see he has nell mcCafferty's approach to tact.

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                                                  #25
                                                  'Ireland were not crap' Revisionism

                                                  That comment about the inadequacy of a player sitting next to him in a press conference and Trap's whole approach doesn't suggest a 'master psychologist' at work. Perhaps Trap is only doing the job as a payday or it's a language thing, but whatever Trap didn't take or pick all of the best players, was too dogmatic in his tactics and formation and so on.

                                                  Not that Ireland could have done much better overall, but they might not have been quite so embarrassingly abysmal. So Trap's performance at these finals leaves a lot to be desired.

                                                  And even the pitiful Scotland national team might have got a positive result against Estonia in a play-off!

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