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    So, were England actually any better this time?

    Were there any green shoots or recovery or is the recession likely to continue for another generation or so?

    I'm not sure that if you compare England 2010 v England 2012, the difference in outcomes was due to anything more than the luck of the draw. France squandered the top place in the group so England got Italy, who had one of those nights when they were going to keep failing with the final ball or shot. Nothing else really changed. The famed Roy organizational prowess did not appear except for the early stages of each half. After that it was Sven/Capello time.

    #2
    So, were England actually any better this time?

    Considering the players who were available, England did well.

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      #3
      So, were England actually any better this time?

      They were alright, I guess.

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        #4
        So, were England actually any better this time?

        double post

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          #5
          So, were England actually any better this time?

          We were considerably more organised than under McClaren or Capello. We know we aren't really good enough to win a tournament, we can't pass etc, but at least we played to our limitations and didn't naively capitulate as against Germany, and beat the two teams we might have reasonably expected to stand a fair chance against.

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            #6
            So, were England actually any better this time?

            But "considerably more organised than under McClaren or Capello" is a very low bar; too low IMHO. That era started because England were woeful in 2006 and I think it's fair to ask whether this was better than then.

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              #7
              So, were England actually any better this time?

              No.

              But, considering Hodgson only had six weeks in the job, it's more than unfair to start tarring him with the brush that's still got the Eriksson/McLaren/Capello skid marks on it. Therefore, it's pointless to judge England's performance in this tournament in any way, shape or form.

              Besides, it's pointless doing so anyway, because careful consideration isn't the English thing.

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                #8
                So, were England actually any better this time?

                I really hoped England would get one more lucky spin at the shootout just so I can see Ashley Young getting dropped for Ox/ Walcott.

                The best performers were the back four, probably simply due to the amount of balls they had to deal with for defending so deep + not passing well.

                Lampard and Barry were badly missed, Roy had no experienced player to call on to replace the already unfit Gerrard/ Parker. To ask Rooney drop deep to mark Pirlo you might as well tell him to play in goal.

                Under Roy England is still unbeaten in open play, conceding only 3 goals in 6 games.

                Yeah, England are a lot better than 2010.

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                  #9
                  So, were England actually any better this time?

                  I thought it was an immensely Sven-era-like performance from England all tournament. Perhaps he can stop being pilloried for not getting England past what seems to be their natural level.

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                    #10
                    So, were England actually any better this time?

                    But "considerably more organised than under McClaren or Capello" is a very low bar; too low IMHO. That era started because England were woeful in 2006 and I think it's fair to ask whether this was better than then.
                    Well you asked if it was better than 2010 and it was, low bar or not. I think England did as well as could be expected given the level of talent available and without going into well-trodden arguments about coaching kids properly.

                    We drew with two teams who were better than us on paper, and beat two teams against whom we were a slight favourite. That's considerably better than 2010 where we drew with two teams ranked well below us in the world, scraped past a third and got hammered by the first good team we faced.

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                      #11
                      So, were England actually any better this time?

                      Somebody had to mark Pirlo, so why not Rooney? But England were desperately short of energy in midfield for the last 45 minutes (inc extra time.)

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                        #12
                        So, were England actually any better this time?

                        I thought it was an immensely Sven-era-like performance from England all tournament. Perhaps he can stop being pilloried for not getting England past what seems to be their natural level.
                        I think Sven is unfairly pilloried/remembered for the mediocre 2006 effort rather than 2002 where we did pretty well with a depleted team, and 2004 which is the best I remember us playing in a tournament (I've been watching since Italia '90) and were genuinely unlucky.

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                          #13
                          So, were England actually any better this time?

                          I have to say I was impressed by Jamie Carragher on ITV's highlights show.

                          Asked about England's prospects in Brazil 2014 he said that England don't have any chance of winning it. Shock horror TV pundit in "England are shite" truth shocker!

                          Who on Earth can warm to that utterly dire, tactically and technically inept, football (as played by Ingurland) and say they actually like the beautiful game?

                          As for energy when did England show any sustained control or a high 'energetic' tempo in that QF? I did pop out of my living room for a piss during the first half - was it for that couple of minutes?

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                            #14
                            So, were England actually any better this time?

                            Under the circumstances they did ok... however, no real signs of much optimism for 2014.

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                              #15
                              So, were England actually any better this time?

                              considering Hodgson only had six weeks in the job, it's more than unfair to start tarring him with the brush that's still got the Eriksson/McLaren/Capello skid marks on it
                              Very well put.

                              The supposed "golden generation" is done now, isn;t it? Is there a point to hanging on to Gerrard and Lampard (never mind Terry) for 2014? And who are the guys to replace them? There isn't much by way of international quality waiting in the wings.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                So, were England actually any better this time?

                                considering Hodgson only had six weeks in the job, it's more than unfair to start tarring him with the brush that's still got the Eriksson/McLaren/Capello skid marks on it

                                really? How would it have worked out differently if he had longer? Roy's 'thing' is the same as fabio capello's 'thing'. The problems all come back to an unsuitable formation and a tendency to pick players on name, and an over-reliance on last ditch defending and moments of individual brilliance. Roy isn't going to change this by the way. He's very much a "more of the same" kind of guy.

                                Hopefully a big raft of retirements from international football will clear the decks of 'famous' players so England can get on with picking players on suitability for the task.

                                England also have to decide what kind of team they want to be. A team with ashley young on one flank and james milner on the other in a 4-4-2 is going to struggle if only because only one of them is an attacking outlet, and can be easily snuffed out, and the other doesn't do much at all.

                                England should take a long look at denmark in this regard. Denmark aren't blessed with great players, but they always set themselves out very well. They have great balance, in that they go with attacking wingers on both sides which always keeps the opposition guessing. They have a deep lying forward, who links attack and midfield, and who links up with both sides.

                                The two midfielders link up with the deep lying forward, and are always spreading the ball to the wings, so they get the most out of their players. It switches between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 depending on the situation. They're generally speaking well organized, comfortable on the ball, and good to watch.

                                There has been a lot of criticism of Ashley Young at this tournament, and the reason he is in the team is because he was england's top scorer over the last year. He's also england's best winger, but the way england are set up leaves him on a hiding to nothing.

                                Consider the factors that make him so effective at man utd. He has a solid partnership with his fullback, so that when he goes inside, he has the option of a pass to evra on the overlap. This gives him more space when he cuts inside, or allows evra to cross from the endline. He has a solid partnership with rooney and welbeck, so that when he does get the ball, they can play triangles down the left hand side.

                                But crucially, he has antonio valencia/nani on the other flank to distract the defence, and he has paul scholes in central midfield, ensuring a plentiful supply of the ball, and switching it between the sides many times in the same period of possession.

                                In the games where man utd are overrun in midfield, young is starved of the ball, and essentially disappears. There's no-one for him to play one-twos with, and he keeps losing the ball, he gets blocked off by superior numbers. This isn't particularly young's fault. He's kind of being set up to fail. This is what happens with england.

                                Now I appreciate that a lot of englsnd's problems have been down to trying to piece together bunches of players who are stars for their clubs, but in this instance, ashley young isn't really a star player relying on large numbers of moments of individual brilliance to mask general stupidity for his club. He's a competent, reliable piece of the jigsaw for man utd. The things that would get the most out of him, are the things that would get the most out of all the players.

                                The trick for england is to find two central midfielders who can play pass and move football. Forget the "BIG TACKLES" of scott parker and the "BIG SHOTS" of steven gerrard or frank lampard. They just need to find midfield players who move into a position to receive the ball when their team has it, and can move it on simply and quickly.

                                Neither Gerrard nor parker were going to be able to do that, neither looked particularly fit, and england suffered.

                                these players don't have to be particularly brilliant or eyecatching, they just need to move into space, and move the ball. I remember an irish midfield of Kilbane, kinsella, holland, duff and finnan dominating possession against spain, and those players played for sunderland, charlton, ipswich, blackburn and fulham.

                                kinsella and holland are no-one's idea of superstars, but they kept moving to receive the ball, and kept moving it on. It's not that they were particularly brilliant at it either, but they kept doing the same simple things, and it kept working. They were fairly normal players, who were always looking to link up with the other players.

                                International football is nowhere near as difficult as england make it look. The standard is much lower than in the champions league, and most of it is below top half of the premiership standard. If only because of the nationality restriction on players, and the short amount of time international teams get together to perfect systems of play.

                                The key to success seems to be to try and bridge this club/country gap by focusing on players who link up well with other players, rather than focus on players who can do big things. England seem to have this entirely the wrong way around.

                                And as long as they keep doing exactly the same things, they'll keep playing exactly the same way, and getting exactly the same results regardless of the players at their disposal, or the identity of the manager.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  So, were England actually any better this time?

                                  The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote:

                                  The trick for england is to find two central midfielders who can play pass and move football. Forget the "BIG TACKLES" of scott parker and the "BIG SHOTS" of steven gerrard or frank lampard. They just need to find midfield players who move into a position to receive the ball when their team has it, and can move it on simply and quickly.
                                  ....
                                  I remember an irish midfield of Kilbane, kinsella, holland, duff and finnan dominating possession against spain, and those players played for sunderland, charlton, ipswich, blackburn and fulham.
                                  Any suggestions which English players could fill the bill?

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                                    #18
                                    So, were England actually any better this time?

                                    "International football is nowhere near as difficult as england make it look."

                                    You should have lead with that.

                                    In the big picture, I still don't understand why England aren't any better. Fairly big, fairly wealthy European country, great - perhaps the greatest - footballing culture. Great passion for the game throughout the country. One of the best domestic leagues. And despite all of that, their national team is only a shade better than the USA's and we only started trying about 20 years ago. It just doesn't make any sense.

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                                      #19
                                      So, were England actually any better this time?

                                      Yeah, last night. Defence and goalkeeper were very good. Midfield was overrun with 2 v 3. Wingers were marginalised and they ended up smashing up to the big lad who was about as mobile and versatile as a fucking 16th century cannon. It hits his head, where's it gonna go? fuck knows.

                                      1980's style football, basically.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        So, were England actually any better this time?

                                        G.Man wrote:
                                        considering Hodgson only had six weeks in the job, it's more than unfair to start tarring him with the brush that's still got the Eriksson/McLaren/Capello skid marks on it
                                        Very well put.

                                        The supposed "golden generation" is done now, isn;t it? Is there a point to hanging on to Gerrard and Lampard (never mind Terry) for 2014? And who are the guys to replace them? There isn't much by way of international quality waiting in the wings.
                                        I had no idea England had a golden generation.

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                                          #21
                                          So, were England actually any better this time?

                                          Only in the heads of the press.

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                                            #22
                                            So, were England actually any better this time?

                                            And Spandau Ballet

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                                              #23
                                              So, were England actually any better this time?

                                              You know, I've read wingco's latest match report once again, and he makes a perfect point.

                                              I remember growing up, what we had in Sweden was one Saturday game from the English league. Luton, Brighton, Liverpool, Nottingham, Watford, whichever teams, it was great, but the same bullshit. Defender hoofs the ball way over midfield towards the opponent side, with one team mate charging down like a lobotomised bulldog trying to win a corner. Corners are very important for the English, a fetish almost, near equal important to a goal. It's like they think; if they practice gaining a corner for a couple of hundred years FIFA will eventually change the rules and award one penalty for every three corners.
                                              Hoof the ball high and long, then charge like a stampeding herd to get some sort of possession down there, a free kick or a corner.
                                              I watched it, because I fell in love with football and would watch anything related with football which was shown on telly.
                                              Wingco makes a perfect point, although somewhat caricaturised.
                                              The PL is a brilliant league, with some amazing football, but take away the foreign invasion and what you're left with are some Brits trying to get rid of the ball - passed down by generations - as soon as possible, as to not be pointed at with a massive index finger being the one who caused the defeat.
                                              Wingco is actually spot on with the penalty kick gag. "Get rid of the ball as soon as you fucking can" (not an exact quote). Losing on penalties is not down to unlucky circumstances. It's within the football mentality of the nation.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                So, were England actually any better this time?

                                                So you don't like the Spanish style possession and short passing game and you're clearly not enamoured with the muck and nettles long ball tactic.
                                                What style would you suggest England and English clubs adopt?
                                                Maybe they should adopt the wildly successful and beautiful Croatian/Swedish version?

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  So, were England actually any better this time?

                                                  Calvert W. McCutcheon wrote: So you don't like the Spanish style possession and short passing game and you're clearly not enamoured with the muck and nettles long ball tactic.
                                                  What style would you suggest England and English clubs adopt?
                                                  Maybe they should adopt the wildly successful and beautiful Croatian/Swedish version?
                                                  England can't "adopt" a style. The style comes, with the right sort of players and the right sort of coach.

                                                  I'm not sure whether you're mocking the Croatian and Swedish style football. I think you are.
                                                  What's wrong with the Croatian style of football?
                                                  We might be a bunch of loon supporters, but the one thing the national side has shown, this tournament, again, is that we don't really give a solid fuck who we meet. I trust you saw Croatia-Spain. Compare that with Spain-France.

                                                  Sweden in 1994, not a single "expert" expected them to do what they did.

                                                  You know, I think England are on to something, like so many comments on here have shown. That England support has taken a step back, from the "we invented football and we are among the favourites, again", I think England should stick with Roy as a coach for at least 12 years. He's not the best coach in the world, but one thing I think he can bring is to instil some sort of humble into this whole endeavour which is for England to one day become champions.
                                                  I think England should start to approach tournaments with the same mentality as Croatia and Sweden does.
                                                  We're not favourites, by no means, but by god, we're not here to fold to anyone, and we can beat anyone.
                                                  Instead of the other way around.
                                                  I mean, your own initial comment shows it, some sort of superiority, like Croatia or Sweden have done worse than England, simply because England are England and everyone should give up as soon as they're on a pitch

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