Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

[Jimmy Bignutz]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

I don't think it'd relevant, and it seems clear that most people that say it do don't either. It's like someone said on the AEB thread, it's just confirmation bias - people have already decided who they like, then cherry pick the facts to fit that.

A lot of people who always bring politics into international football have been saying "Merkel is irrelevant to the German team", because they like Germany and suddenly it's inconvenient.

[shadsworth cloud]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

its notable that in the euro tournament, everything is political. that is a function of european history. a history where borders shift and empires ebb and flow.
in so many ways we are sheletered from this by being an island but especially in poland and Ukraine they are more aware of changing borders,
Lviv (Lvov) is a host city in Ukraine. Up to 1945 it was Poland.
maybe one of the things about germany is that they have gotten used to this kind of political undertone. For Germany every match has a political background. v Holland, v Denmark because of the nazi time, and then v Greece because of the Eurozone.
Its to their credit that they can just see it as a football match.
Of course, for us englanders every country is defined by its relation to England (UK). Argentina, Germany, France, Portugal.

[Bored Of Education]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

Politics in football has ruined my club. Simple as that.

[delicatemoth]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

TonTon wrote: I'm with Eric's and PPV, you'll not be surprised to hear.

I'd go further, of course, and say that for me, trying to separate "politics" from anything we do is (a) futile and (b) political.

Yes, absolutely.

You could dislike a team due to political reasons but it would be pretty daft and hateful. The players themselves have very little to no influence over stuff like that so why hold it against them?

THIS IS RUSSIA

Doesn't mean I have anything personal against any of the Russian players but, by cracky, I cheered when Greece dumped them out.

[G-Man]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

Take the German side, for instance. Not all of them blonde, tall "proper Germans which Hitler would be proud of", if you excuse my over the top last one there within quotation marks remark.
Loads of immigrants today, first or second immigrants in that side. And if you make your way to German suburbs where an overwhelming part of an area are Turkish Gastarbeiter, they will support Turkey first, maybe not Germany even second a decade ago, but today without doubt they do. Why?
One reason. Özil.

That's a bit of a shorthand. First and secind gebweration Turks found it difficult to assimilate for various reasons: the initial expectation by Turks and Germans alike that the presence of "guestworkers" was transient (hence their title); the reality of living as strangers in a society that changes very slowly; a mutually reinforcing resistance to assimilate on the part of many Turks and by Germans to let them assimilate (hell, let's call it xenophobia); proper xenophibia; an impulse to keep alive old cultural and family attachments; the language barrier etc.

By the time of the third generation, many of the obstacles to assimilation had diminished or even disappeared. Many, perhaps most, third generation Turks know Germany as their home; Turkish culture is not necessarily tied to a national identity. Supporting Germany is natural, or it is an act of assimilation itself, or both.

Özil might catch the swing voters, but he is not The Reason.

[Defensive minded]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

Özil is a separate case. First of all , his parents are Kurdish so their Turkish identity may not be that strong, as it is usually the parents who put moral pressure on their children. Secondly, he has shown throughout his career that money comes first for him. Playing for Germany gives him a better opportunity to showcase his talent and cash in on lucrative commercials.

Otherwise your analysis is correct, PPV. My son plays in a team of which only one player has two German parents. They would probably all opt to play for Germany if old and good enough to do so. Language is the key factor as German is the only language all of the kids and parents understand.

[dryroasted]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

Elano Tele Romeu Ramires wrote:

National sides are often disliked due to historical conflict or political acts that are nothing to do with football.

You could dislike a team due to political reasons but it would be pretty daft and hateful. The players themselves have very little to no influence over stuff like that so why hold it against them?

You may as well say you should hate Iker Casillas because of Franco or likewise Messi due to Galtieri.

It's totally daft, but it happens.

[Satchmo Distel]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

I think it has lessened since:

1) Time since WW2 has grown longer

2) We are in a European economic union and recognize our interdependence

3) Clubs are bigger than national teams: Man U and Barcelona are bigger than England or Spain (and probably better teams most seasons given that they have had Ronaldo and Messi at various times)

My experience of Euro 96 was that the fans at grounds were great but the fair-weather fans in pubs and offices made me want to puke. But that's more to do with the game being diluted by clingers with no knowledge of its traditions.

[Bored Of Education]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

I am hungover so will be answering this is bite-size gobbets.

Sport is one of the very few acceptable manifestations of nationalism but, obviously, it spills over into unacceptability

[NHH]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

Bored of Education wrote: Politics in football has ruined my club. Simple as that.

Has it? Is the problem that people just aren't getting on, or because a wealthy guy decided to make an issue totemic?

[NHH]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

What's the point of sport without the cultural overlay? The aesthetics of the game?

The difference between a bunch of people having a kick about and organised professional sport is a load of stuff that is nothing to do with it, like regionalism, nationalism, history, culture and economics. Finding non-political sport is like finding non-calorific food.

[EIM]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

TonTon wrote: I'm with Eric's and PPV, you'll not be surprised to hear.

I'd go further, of course, and say that for me, trying to separate "politics" from anything we do is (a) futile and (b) political.

The last point is worth picking up on. When FC United refused to speak to the BBC after the Rochdale game, in order to avoid crossing a picket line, some of our fans criticised the decision saying it was not right to make a political gesture like that. They refused to see that providing an interview to scab journalists was a political act in itself.

[jason voorhees]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

Defensive minded wrote: Good initial post by PPV

*snort*

[E10 Rifle]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

Politics in football has ruined my club. Simple as that.

No. The wrong politics has ruined it. You only need to look at TT's and EIM's clubs to see what good politics can do.

The thing is, people can argue forever about whether football should mix with, and reflect, politics. But the fact is that it does. Always has, always will. It's what politics you respond to this situation with is where the debate is to be had.

[DCI Harry Batt]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

Whereas we think it's fundamentally silly to imagine "politics" as some separate sphere. It's a different way of thinking about stuff, innit.

[Diable Rouge]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

It's more a realisation of the truism that "international football is a substitute for war" rather than any meaningful political statement. In some instances, such as Poland v Russia or Germany v Greece, the geopolitical reality may be more pressing, but if you take for instance, the Irish antipathy towards the English national team, that has become just a playful pantomime for most people, rather than a genuine commentary on the Normans, Cromwell, Thatcher etc. As for international supporters of Premier League teams, a socialist might construe that as implicit endorsement of globalisation, but hardly so if passed down through generations.

[Pietro Paolo Virdis]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

Brunislaw wrote: Nobody doubts the presence of politics in football (how could it not be at the management level?), but nonetheless it's silly, imo, to assert that the support of one team or another is by definition political.

If you're asking me, I'm not at all proposing that you as someone who likes good football is taking a political stance just because you want one nation to win over another.
That's got nothing to do with what I tried to say in my initial post, where I was against the claim so many sportigarchs make, that sport is sport and politics are politics, when I claim (without thinking I've invented the wheel or something), that sport on an international level is by definition politics.

[Pietro Paolo Virdis]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

Brunislaw wrote: Absent making plausible, non-trivial arguments about the real political ramifications of one act or another, "everything's political" is just a slogan.

If someone maintains that his support of a team is apolitical, the burden's on you to explain how it's not. I assume the best argument boils down to how one chooses to spend one's money, a line that leads very quickly into meaningless, abstract purism.

What's difficult to understand?
The fans are not a political movement, even though some or many can involve politics in their following, and it doesn't have to be permanent.
A national side in sports is political, period.

You're not Russian, but when that banner of theirs was on display, did you not get a bit turned off and maybe you didn't want Russia to go out because of it, but you felt you wouldn't cry if they did?
Maybe from being indifferent to Russia as a side in the EC, you turned slightly against them because of the banner?

[Pietro Paolo Virdis]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

Brunislaw wrote:

that sport on an international level is by definition politics.

I think we can all agree that international sports is capable of being more or less political. And the less the better.

Yes, yes, and yes. More or less. Yes, it can be. But never not at all.

[Bored Of Education]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

Politics in football has ruined my club. Simple as that.

Has it? Is the problem that people just aren't getting on, or because a wealthy guy decided to make an issue totemic?

As I've said before, the Cardiff situation is a symptom of a much greater malaise in football that started with the formation of the EPL and the TV involvement which led to the Murdoch involvement which, of course, where politics come in.

No. The wrong politics has ruined it. You only need to look at TT's and EIM's clubs to see what good politics can do.

Yes,I wouldn't disagree with that.

[Gangster Octopus]

Politics & football should not mix - the bullshit

TonTon wrote: Whereas we think it's fundamentally silly to imagine "politics" as some separate sphere [to sport].

Quite.