Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

[ad hoc]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

For all the Lahm love (and I concur in the main) it was him who got absolutely skinned by Salpigidis for Greece's equaliser

[G-Man]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

Defensive minded wrote:

Germany look much better when they can counter attack than when they are forced to take the game to an opponent. We saw that in the World Cup group stages too, this was forgotten by their overrated wins over England and Argentina.

Are you covering for AIATL while he's on holiday?

Applause!

He's right. Germany are best when they counter attack. They struggle against teams who score first and attack with most players behind the ball.

I think Bignutz was referring more to the nonsense of the wins over England and Argentina being "overrated".

[dalliance]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

They certainly caused Germany to be overrated here. It's not a slight against them but basically everyone in England seems to have been transfixed with this image of an all conquering German side based upon two matches two years ago.

The England game was closer than the scoreline suggested, it was basically England's inability to chase a game with any brains that saw them picked off on the counter attack. English tactical inefficiency. Then there was Argentina who played a single midfielder with an ounce of defensive nous against a strong five man midfield. Argentine tactical inefficiency. Crap manager.

Germany of course happily took full advantage as good teams do, but these games were gifts and people forgot about their considerably more torpid form in the rest of the tournament against teams who did not blindly and stupidly attack them.

Thus the original comment.

[Satchmo Distel]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

Agree that England and Argentina were ideal fodder. They still found a way to win in other games, though, such as in the decider against Ghana and the opener against what we now know to be a good Portugal side here. Not always prettily but it allows for commentators to fall back on the functionality cliches when necessary.

It will be close in the semis and final either way because none of the remaining teams is going to allow themselves to get stretched. The games will be condensed and the key players will be those who can cope with that.

[Tactical Genius]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

Germany are overrated because they thrashed England and Argentina.
Has any team in the history of the world cup ever done that?

[dalliance]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

So suddenly beating England becomes a notable scalp for you after years of telling everyone how rubbish they are?

[Satchmo Distel]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

He's talking about the thrashing: that was England's heaviest defeat ever in a finals IIRC. Similar wake-up call to 1953.

[Tactical Genius]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

Also it wasn't German Counter-attacking that beat England, it was the movement of the German front three and the poor positional sense of Terry and Upson.

[Tactical Genius]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

satchmo76 wrote: He's talking about the thrashing: that was England's heaviest defeat ever in a finals IIRC. Similar wake-up call to 1953.

He knows, he is just trying to defend his silly point.

Also, i don't see anything different from England in this tournament thant they have displaced under Sven.
Its just that nobody is under any illusions that they can do any better.

[Incandenza]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

Tactical Genius wrote: Also it wasn't German Counter-attacking that beat England, it was the movement of the German front three and the poor positional sense of Terry and Upson.

I suppose there's often at least one player who you look back and think "how did he ever make it into the team?" I forgot that Upson was playing in that game, and that was my reaction.

[Jimmy Bignutz]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

Klose has scored in 42 games for Germany: 39 wins, 3 draws

[Satchmo Distel]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

I've not seen any evidence that England would know how to counter that front three today. I'm not saying they'd ship four but I'd expect Germany to get one in the first half and force England to come out, whereupon it would be game over.

[dalliance]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

Also it wasn't German Counter-attacking that beat England, it was the movement of the German front three and the poor positional sense of Terry and Upson

.

The movement of the front three when they were counter attacking with ease in the second half when England were desperately trying to get back in the game and pushing up.

Getting from your goal to the other goal quickly and with at least as many attackers as they have defenders is what counter attacking is.

Anyway. Thomas Muller has said pretty much the same thing to the German media (about the original point). He said that Germany were not in the kindergarten this time as they were two years ago and all the teams this time are very organised.

[G-Man]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

That sounded like a big dig at Maradona and at Australia (whom he mentioned elsewhere in the interview).

Asked about the more defensive tactics at Euro 2012, he said:

"It's a sign that before their games, everybody is now thinking how to beat their opponents and not simply start to play as if they are in a kindergarten. Maybe that's the difference: in Europe there are many well-trained coaches; we just don't have the 'let's just play" philosophy."

Nothing about England. And I don't think Müller's evaluation is intended to dimiish his team's accomplishment. To put four past England and Argentina, in successive matches, is an impressive achievement which not many sides would have accomplished; to call it "overrated" seems a bit curmudgeonly.

[dalliance]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

I have upgraded from nonsensical to curmudgeonly, I suppose that is a victory.

Spain came in for a lot of criticism then and since because they struggled to score many goals when winning the World Cup. There was a good reason for this though, everyone defended desperately and with considerable depth against them for the entire tournament, even when they were behind.

I don't doubt that Spain would have destroyed Argentina and England on the counter attack in the same way as Germany, in the same conditions, had they been fortunate enough to be drawn against them.

But they were not. Argentina and England might be historically good scalps to capture in a tournament, but they were absolute shells of themselves last time round. Germany went out and played a decent game against both and must have been surprised at how easy their opponents made it for them -Argentina all game and England in the second half.

Again, this is no attempt to denigrate Germany, but those results looked spectacular on paper and dazzled people into thinking that Germany were / are perhaps that bit better than they actually are.

[Satchmo Distel]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

But your original comment was "over-rated wins", which I think was problematic. I don't think you can over-rate the actual performances, which were as good as Germany could have done against those particular sides. They played the perfect tactical game both times, as it were, and executed the plan brilliantly.

I'd agree it was a logical gaffe in 2010 to think "they've scored 8 v England and Argentina so they'll definitely get one against Spain", or to think that Spain, Brazil, Holland and Uruguay (plus maybe Ghana and a few others) wouldn't have beaten England and Argentina those days.

So you're right to the extent that beating two shit tactical formations 4-1 and 4-0 doesn't make the victors great in isolation.

[Guest]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

This match was the first time in European Championship history that two countries who share a first letter played each other in a city that also shares that first letter.

However, it's happened three times in World Cups. Any guesses?

[Magik]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

I have no idea Lodz! Give us a clue?

[G-Man]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

dalliance wrote:

I don't doubt that Spain would have destroyed Argentina and England on the counter attack in the same way as Germany, in the same conditions, had they been fortunate enough to be drawn against them.

The way they played against Paraguay in the same round? I don't think so. And Argentina got on by OK up to the QF.

[Guest]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

I have no idea Lodz! Give us a clue?

The three matches in question all involve the same letter.

[Magik]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

Sweden v Scotland at Sampdoria ground Italia `90? Or am I stretching the rules here?

[Magik]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

PM for Lodz although dont know where are those after the upgrade.

[Guest]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

We have the first one from Magiczny:

1966 Spain-Switzerland in Sheffield.

I should warn those searching for the other two that one involves the Soviet Union (rather than the USSR).

[Magik]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

btw where can i read my PMs on this board? and don't say in a library....

[Magik]

Europe, or why Greece are doomed - QF2

Spain v Sweden in Sao Paolo in 1950

Sweden v Soviet Union in Stockholm in 1958