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Group D finale: Rooney's return

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    Group D finale: Rooney's return

    France ought to win the group, what with only having an already dispatched Sweden team that are at each other's throat. England only need a draw to go through, whilst Ukraine must win to progress. Both can still top the group, but they would require the French result to be compatible.
    The big question from an England perspective is whether Wayne Rooney should play. He is, in the opinion of most supporters, the best player we have, by some distance, though he does not always play to his full ability and potential in the national side, and there is always the dark black cloud of his temperament to deal with, which takes him over at the flick of a switch.
    You could also argue that he is not match fit after so long without a game, but then it would be just as easy to point at Parker and Terry and how tired and off the pace they are. Rooney has had a rest period, and could well be fit and raring to go.
    The next thing is should you change a winning side? well Carroll was only brought in to the side to play a specific role in the game against Sweden, a different tactic may be required against Ukraine. Also that side only became a winning side after the introduction of Walcott, so by rights he should first be accommodated into the staring line-up. Before tonight's games Roy Keane and Roberto Martinez both felt that a winning side should not be broken up, but Patrick Vieira felt that you should always try to make room for your best player on the field.
    My two-pennorth, for what it is worth (just short of one penny in new money), is that Rooney should start up front, playing just behind Welbeck, and Walcott on the right, with Milner or Young on the left. I would give Young one more chance, but I reckon Hodgson would lean toward a more defensive style.

    #2
    Group D finale: Rooney's return

    Welbeck has played 2 games. Carrol 1 game. Rooney 0 games.

    If anyone was to be dropped it would make sense to give Welbeck a rest, and save the Rooney/Welbeck combination for the Quater-finals. He can always come on as sub if necessary. That way none of the strikers will have had to play all three group games. I don't think Ukraine would expect us to drop Welbeck either.

    I think the killer for Ukraine, may be Shevchenko not physically coping with three games in a row like this at his age.

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      #3
      Group D finale: Rooney's return

      Rooney has never done the business at a major finals whereas Welbeck has arguably already done more here than Rooney did in the last two World Cups.

      However, if Ukraine don't score (which is highly possible) it doesn't matter who plays up front.

      England would top the group if they finish with an identical record to France due to a higher ranking.

      My AEB worry is that France are going to settle for a draw so England will avoid Spain, then Italy will somehow self-destruct in the QF. But as I said on the other thread, England are not defending well enough for me to think they would be favorites to win a QF against anyone.

      My prediction would be that we'll find out that Sweden and Ukraine are two very crap sides and France and England had an easy ride in the group.

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        #4
        Group D finale: Rooney's return

        To be fair to Rooney, he was very decent at Euro 2004 until he did his foot in against Portugal.

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          #5
          Group D finale: Rooney's return

          I would expect Hodgson to try and have the "club connection" up top and play Rooney and Welbeck with Young wide left. I'd also expect Milner to continue to start out right as I'm guessing Hodgson likes the idea of keeping things tight with Milner playing more defensively in the first half and then if they need goals, bringing on Walcott to run at a tired defense.

          Welbeck also makes sense because the Ukraine have managed to control the air pretty well (having the tallest outfield player in their team) while being vulnerable to combination play (all three goals against have come from balls played in to feet).

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            #6
            Group D finale: Rooney's return

            Sean, c'mon, honestly, you don't really give a shit who starts up fron at this point, you couldn't contain yourself, excitement and hopes of England winning this whole shebang and it's all those little tickle kind of feelings you need to get out somehow, like with a thread related to England, innit?

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              #7
              Group D finale: Rooney's return

              I don't know why all the other nations do not simply accept England's inherent footballing superiority and award them the winner's trophy every tournament and in doing so save an awful lot of time and money.

              As for Rooney how dare anyone complain about being violently kicked by the greatest footballer imaginable? It's more a kind of wonderful honour, yes?

              I think, at the very least, the Ukrainian FA should do the decent thing and forfeit the upcoming match.

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                #8
                Group D finale: Rooney's return

                Pietro Paolo Virdis wrote: Sean, c'mon, honestly, you don't really give a shit who starts up fron at this point, you couldn't contain yourself, excitement and hopes of England winning this whole shebang and it's all those little tickle kind of feelings you need to get out somehow, like with a thread related to England, innit?
                I don't know why all the other nations do not simply accept England's inherent footballing superiority and award them the winner's trophy every tournament and in doing so save an awful lot of time and money.

                As for Rooney how dare anyone complain about being violently kicked by the greatest footballer imaginable? It's more a kind of wonderful honour, yes?

                I think, at the very least, the Ukrainian FA should do the decent thing and forfeit the upcoming match.
                I'm honestly not sure which of the above is the more fucking pitiful.

                England's moderate success so far seems to have tipped some of the more mentally fragile members of the ABE over the edge.

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                  #9
                  Group D finale: Rooney's return

                  satchmo76 wrote:

                  My AEB worry is that France are going to settle for a draw so England will avoid Spain, then Italy will somehow self-destruct in the QF. But as I said on the other thread, England are not defending well enough for me to think they would be favorites to win a QF against anyone.

                  My prediction would be that we'll find out that Sweden and Ukraine are two very crap sides and France and England had an easy ride in the group.
                  Why would Les Bleus take the risk of ending up with Spain?

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                    #10
                    Group D finale: Rooney's return

                    Evan Evian wrote: I don't know why all the other nations do not simply accept England's inherent footballing superiority and award them the winner's trophy every tournament and in doing so save an awful lot of time and money.

                    As for Rooney how dare anyone complain about being violently kicked by the greatest footballer imaginable? It's more a kind of wonderful honour, yes?

                    I think, at the very least, the Ukrainian FA should do the decent thing and forfeit the upcoming match.
                    Why not take a look at the Wingcommander's match reports, Evan. You'll see there how this kind of thing is done with style, wit and intelligence.

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                      #11
                      Group D finale: Rooney's return

                      Nocturnal Submission wrote:
                      I'm honestly not sure which of the above is the more fucking pitiful.

                      England's moderate success so far seems to have tipped some of the more mentally fragile members of the ABE over the edge.
                      To be fair, PPV is just having a little dig about England supporters getting hugely over-exited after a couple of half-decent results, and is probably just reciprocating a little dig I had over on another thread.
                      Evan Evian is just a tedious troll with one single agenda, and I am now going to apply the "IGNORE POSTER" function, because life's too short for all that shit.

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                        #12
                        Group D finale: Rooney's return

                        Yeah, it really is quite a conundrum as Sean points out in the OP.

                        Do you drop one of your two goalscorers from the prior match to accomodate a superior/senior player, albeit one who hasn't scored a goal in his last 8 matches at a major championship.

                        The obvious/safe option would be to drop Carroll. Rooney will need match practice if we make the quarters and partnering him with a clubmate just makes sense. However there is something to be said for throwing a curveball in these situations, you want to keep oppo managers guessing as much as possible. Would there be any mileage in playing Rooney and Carroll I wonder?

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                          #13
                          Group D finale: Rooney's return

                          Maybe if England needed the win, Rooney would be too much of a risk and wouldn't start? Conversely, if England needed the win, we wouldn't be saying, "Don't change a winning team" because they'd have been truly crap against Sweden (and Rooney would be being hyped as saviour).

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                            #14
                            Group D finale: Rooney's return

                            Teams that have one player who thinks he is bigger than the team and/or the undoubted star always seem to fuck up. If Rooney comes on and starts doing what Zlatan has been doing for Sweden, England have had it. Ronaldo does this too, and often it goes really badly wrong, though because he is genuinely an absolutely belting player*, Portugal do get away with it occasionally. For Holland they have this problem multiplied because every fucker on the team thinks he is "the talent". I think there was a certain amount of Lewandowski-as-saviour in Poland's demise too. Romania with Mutu in were diabolically bad.

                            Spain and Germany are just superbly good teams, and no one player seems to think he is above the group.

                            (*Is it true that when Portugal go to tournaments Ronaldo gets a suite on his own and everybody else shares a room?)

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                              #15
                              Group D finale: Rooney's return

                              He shares a room with an inflatable doll of himself. By all accounts it's showing some serious amounts of wear and tear.

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                                #16
                                Group D finale: Rooney's return

                                Do you mean, everyone else shares one room?

                                Actually, that seems only just beyond the realms of possibility.

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                                  #17
                                  Group D finale: Rooney's return

                                  It sounds like Ireland in Japan in 2002.

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                                    #18
                                    Group D finale: Rooney's return

                                    The doll walked out in disgust at Roy Keane's behaviour.

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                                      #19
                                      Group D finale: Rooney's return

                                      Sean of the Szczed wrote: He shares a room with an inflatable doll of himself. By all accounts it's showing some serious amounts of wear and tear.
                                      [image]The Inflatable Gimp Picture That Is Popular Around These Parts[/image]

                                      It needs emptying, for a kick-off.

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                                        #20
                                        Group D finale: Rooney's return

                                        France committing tournament suicide by letting England top the group would be quite amusing and in character with how they've performed in Euros since 2000. I wouldn't rule it out. Then the AEB jitters would really kick in.

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                                          #21
                                          Group D finale: Rooney's return

                                          So the [strike]best[/strike] only way to avoid Spain now is to win the group, but having seen how Spain struggled to get past Croatia this seems no longer to be the most perilous route. Whoever finishes 1st in the group will face a tricky tie against Italy, and should they get past them will, in all probability, meet Germany in the semi-final, whereas the group runners up, if they do manage to get past Spain, meet the winners of Czech Republic and Portugal.
                                          So it's swings and roundabouts really. Spain and Germany are the favourites for the final and are on opposite sides of the draw, so anyone who does win the tournament, other than those two, will most likely have to beat one of them in the knockout stages then beat the other in the final. If you do that then you fucking deserve to be champions of Europe

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                                            #22
                                            Group D finale: Rooney's return

                                            Sean of the Szczed wrote:
                                            Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission
                                            I'm honestly not sure which of the above is the more fucking pitiful.

                                            England's moderate success so far seems to have tipped some of the more mentally fragile members of the ABE over the edge.
                                            To be fair, PPV is just having a little dig about England supporters getting hugely over-exited after a couple of half-decent results, and is probably just reciprocating a little dig I had over on another thread.
                                            Evan Evian is just a tedious troll with one single agenda, and I am now going to apply the "IGNORE POSTER" function, because life's too short for all that shit.
                                            I still haven't figured out what "a dig" is, exactly. I mean all the different ones.
                                            I know the version when you poke someone in the face with a stick while you go "ha-ha!" like that lad in Simpsons.
                                            I know the version when you simply tease a bit, without intention to ridicule.
                                            Maybe I did one of the other 3-4, which I'm not aware of.
                                            Anyway, Sean, you've seen me write about Croatia here. Imagine they'd play a semi-final. I'd be the worst member on OTF in terms of being hyper about out our chances, so it wasn't ill-meant. There's nothing more brilliant than a fan who is excited about her or his sides chances.
                                            Why else do we follow this sport?

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                                              #23
                                              Group D finale: Rooney's return

                                              To have a beer with mates and wear a nice coat?

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                                                #24
                                                Group D finale: Rooney's return

                                                I don't really think that the debate about whether finishing first or second makes much of a difference. Spain aren't playing brilliantly and Italy are playing reasonably okay - both by their own standards - and would both be incredibly difficult opposition in the next round.

                                                That may or not be for this time tomorrow, though. This is an away match against Ukraine and that is a really, really difficult match. England lost the only other time they've been there and it'll be nervy, a hostile atmosphere, which doesn't seem to me as if it would benefit the away team in any way.

                                                Ukraine played well in coming back against Sweden, but they were really poor against France - positively anaemic. I'm still not sure what to make of them, but I'm not really sure what to make of England either, at the moment. The press was saying this morning that Walcott was injured for tomorrow but he's fit again now. The Rooney thing has thrown another spanner in the works, and could go either way. He could be so psyched up that the familiar sight of him turning redder and redder as he has to drop deeper and deeper in frustration at not getting the ball and then getting sent off for booting someone up the arse isn't difficult to imagine.

                                                On the other hand, every shot I've seen of him on the bench, being interviewed or whatever has shown him looking considerably more relaxed than he often does - almost serene. Perhaps they're feeding him valium or something. Are tranqs on the banned substance list? I assume they are, but couldn't see them on the IOC list that I was looking at earlier.

                                                We'll see, I guess. Impossible to call, for me.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Group D finale: Rooney's return

                                                  Also, I need a new coat.

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