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    Last night's Panorama

    So, what did you make of it?

    #2
    Last night's Panorama

    I'm not going to Kharkiv anytime soon.

    Comment


      #3
      Last night's Panorama

      Those with an already deep interest in football will have known about the problems in Poland and Ukraine but will still have been shocked by the footage.

      The toothless apologists at UEFA and the football federations of the two countries were made to look perticularly inept, or even indifferent.

      Comment


        #4
        Last night's Panorama

        I'm watching it now.

        I tend to overreact but I'm thinking we shouldn't turn up for the tournament.

        Comment


          #5
          Last night's Panorama

          They were chanting Who's not jumping is a Jew. It could be a Feyenoord match.

          But, erm, Ireland-Croatia in Poznan... should be OK, no? And, I am ashamed to say that the thought crossed my mind that I am white so they'll leave me alone.

          Comment


            #6
            Last night's Panorama

            Can anyone guess which contrarian Telegraph blogger reckons critics of Ukranian and Polish racists are the real xenophobes?

            Comment


              #7
              Last night's Panorama

              I'm watching the bits in Ukraine now, that's even worse.

              This abduction of the Celtic cross as a far-right symbol is also annoying.

              Comment


                #8
                Last night's Panorama

                oh I know Brendan O'neil

                Comment


                  #9
                  Last night's Panorama

                  That's him.

                  Look at the pondlife on his blog, if you have a strong stomach. Apparently Sol Campbell is a racist because there are some bad estates in London where black people live.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Last night's Panorama

                    just read load of crap from a contrarian who runs a contrarian website just complete and utter idiocy anti-rascism accoridng to O'neil equals rascism and pointing out the problems in Ukraine is just an example of zenophobia utter cunt

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Last night's Panorama

                      It's utterly mind-blowing, this Eastern European Nazi-loving thing.
                      The grandparents of this utter scum did most of the fighting and dying in WWII, battled those fucking savages to a standstill and chased their heinous asses all the way back to Berlin.
                      The grandparents must be so proud.

                      Despair.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Last night's Panorama

                        Bryaniesta wrote:
                        I'm watching the bits in Ukraine now, that's even worse.

                        This abduction of the Celtic cross as a far-right symbol is also annoying.
                        Well, I noticed that too. The narrator bloke said somthing along the lines of "they are full of nazi propaganda - the swastika [that's a given], the something else that I can't remember but surprised me that it's thought of as racist, and the celtic cross, which if it's against anything is probably anti England, but I've never seen it as a threat. But he said it as though these were well known nazi symbols. I may well be missing something, but I didn't get that bit.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Last night's Panorama

                          Ukraine's Euro director describes Sol Campbell's remarks as 'insolent'.

                          Presumably the PR team talked him down from 'uppity'.

                          Ostrich-like denial of the problem hardly inspires confidence that suitable plans are in place to deal with any trouble during the tournament.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Last night's Panorama

                            This bloke's lost me:

                            And Ukrainian Foreign Ministry spokesman Oleg Voloshyn said fans had nothing to fear.
                            "Nazi symbols can be seen at ... any match in England, but does it mean that fans should not come to London for the Olympics?," he said.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Last night's Panorama

                              pebblethefish wrote:
                              Bryaniesta wrote:
                              I'm watching the bits in Ukraine now, that's even worse.

                              This abduction of the Celtic cross as a far-right symbol is also annoying.
                              Well, I noticed that too. The narrator bloke said somthing along the lines of "they are full of nazi propaganda - the swastika [that's a given], the something else that I can't remember but surprised me that it's thought of as racist, and the celtic cross, which if it's against anything is probably anti England, but I've never seen it as a threat. But he said it as though these were well known nazi symbols. I may well be missing something, but I didn't get that bit.
                              http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.co.uk/2007/12/that-fascist-solar-cross.html

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Last night's Panorama

                                Tubby Isaacs wrote:
                                This bloke's lost me:

                                And Ukrainian Foreign Ministry spokesman Oleg Voloshyn said fans had nothing to fear.
                                "Nazi symbols can be seen at ... any match in England, but does it mean that fans should not come to London for the Olympics?," he said.
                                I'd love to know what was said in the "..." bit. I hate when journalists think they have to spoon feed us like that.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Last night's Panorama

                                  Tubby Isaacs wrote:
                                  This bloke's lost me:

                                  And Ukrainian Foreign Ministry spokesman Oleg Voloshyn said fans had nothing to fear.
                                  "Nazi symbols can be seen at ... any match in England, but does it mean that fans should not come to London for the Olympics?," he said.
                                  Presumably he meant this:-

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Last night's Panorama

                                    There's a good anthropology Phd thesis to be written about the use of nazi symbolism by football supporters in Europe outside the UK. Having been in Portugal for almost a decade, the shock of seeing a 90 degrees rotated SS symbol to represent Benfica's ultras has sort of died away. And just about every ultra does that nazi salute thing in every stadium outside the UK.

                                    At Benfica, I'd estimate well over 40% of the ultras are young black kids from the suburbs, all of whom will wear the rotated SS symbol, all of whom will do countless nazi salutes during a game. For those kids, what was once a sly gesture of far right sympathy has become a way of showing dedication to a football club and nothing more. I've got no doubt the same kids may also monkey chant players, but I've never seen that happen, but could well imagine it. But I suppose they have more right to do it than most, like using the n-word - but it's deplorable any way you look at it.

                                    The situation is obviously a lot more serious in the Ukraine. The Jewish obsession just seems ridiculous and the attack on those poor Indian students was sickening. But Ukranian society must be safe enough to convince those students to believe they could go to game in safety, unlike the UK, where many grounds are very much out of bounds for the asian community.

                                    I don't think the UK gets anywhere with these kind of attacks on European football culture, no matter how sickening it is. Sol Campbell saying football supporters will come back in a coffin if they visit Poland or the Ukraine during Euro 2012 is offensive and goes down the road of a UK superiority complex that the rest of Europe despises.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Last night's Panorama

                                      Feyenoord fans singing "Whoever doesn't jump is a Jew."

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Last night's Panorama

                                        unlike the UK, where many grounds are very much out of bounds for the asian community.
                                        Not trying to be facetious here, but which ones?

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Last night's Panorama

                                          Tubby Isaacs wrote:
                                          This bloke's lost me:

                                          And Ukrainian Foreign Ministry spokesman Oleg Voloshyn said fans had nothing to fear.
                                          "Nazi symbols can be seen at ... any match in England, but does it mean that fans should not come to London for the Olympics?," he said.
                                          The only image I can think of is that charming picture of the Chelsea fan and child giving a Nazi salute.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            Last night's Panorama

                                            szczeweeeeeeeee wrote:
                                            And just about every ultra does that nazi salute thing in every stadium outside the UK.
                                            Not many of them do in France, because that would get them sent to jail or fined thousands of euros, in addition to a lengthy stadium ban. Which might be a bit of a heavy-handed way of dealing with nazi imagery, but that still seems preferrable to the Ukrainian authorities' approach of deying that it even happens.

                                            szczeweeeeeeeee wrote:
                                            The situation is obviously a lot more serious in the Ukraine. The Jewish obsession just seems ridiculous and the attack on those poor Indian students was sickening. But Ukranian society must be safe enough to convince those students to believe they could go to game in safety, unlike the UK, where many grounds are very much out of bounds for the asian community.
                                            You've lost me. There are grounds in the UK where Asian people get beaten up for the colour of their skin while the crowd and the stewarts turn a blind eye? If so, which ones?

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Last night's Panorama

                                              Calvert W. McCutcheon wrote:
                                              unlike the UK, where many grounds are very much out of bounds for the asian community.
                                              Not trying to be facetious here, but which ones?
                                              From my own experience of going to the stadium, if I were asian I wouldn't feel 100% comfortable sitting in certain sections of the East Upper stand at The Den, in fact I wouldn't personally sit there full stop, a wrong look could get you into bother. However, Cold Blow Lane End and most other parts of the ground would be fine. I'd also be interested to know how much of the local asian community goes to watch Burnley, West Ham, Leicester or Oldham.

                                              There are grounds in the UK where Asian people get beaten up for the colour of their skin while the crowd and the stewarts turn a blind eye? If so, which ones?
                                              Not at all, Fussbudget. I'm saying that the Ukranian community outside of football grounds was obviously inclusive enough to make those Indian supporters feel they could go to a football game without fear of violence. In the UK, most asians don't go to watch their local football team because the local community who watch football don't make them feel welcome, despite huge efforts on the part of many clubs.

                                              And the stewards in the Panorama report didn't turn a blind eye, one very brave steward protected one of the Indian supporters. As was said at the beginning of that section, the game didn't have enough stewards to control the stands and a hideous mob mentality took over looking for the easiest victim to beat. Games without proper stewarding get out of control fast in any country in the world.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Last night's Panorama

                                                Also, didn't Paul S post something recently about a group of asian supporters being abused a Dagenham & Redbridge game he attended?

                                                edit, found it:

                                                http://www.wsc.co.uk/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,73/func,view/catid,27/id,634238/

                                                It's f*cking vile stuff from all directions and I don't want to get into a "you called him a n***** but they called him a n***** twice" kind of argument. The blatant racist symbolism used by European ultras is shocking and abhorrent, but as I said in first post, you sadly get anesthetized to it over time.

                                                Football supporting is still very much a white dominated past-time in the whole of Europe and even though great work is done in the UK to tackle the problem, there is still a problem.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Last night's Panorama

                                                  I'm not sure about that. I took a lad I know to a Shrewsbury game and am pretty certain he was the only non-white supporter in the stadium. There was no hassle.

                                                  It's worth pointing out that some places have all-white support because that's who lives there. 1200 kids in my secondary school in Shrewsbury and only 2 were black.

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