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Last night's Panorama

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    #51
    Last night's Panorama

    Calvert W. McCutcheon wrote:
    We seem to be differing only on how seriously we take these cunts, PPV.
    If they want to play big boys' games then I think we should take them at their word and treat them accordingly.
    Imprisonment for any sort of of Nazi imagery or displays of Nazi behaviour.Matches abandoned and clubs closed down until it stops.
    No one wants to do anything meaningful about it, though.
    Particularly UEFA
    I lean towards agreeing with the above which I've put in bold. Maybe not prison, but a hefty fine.

    Comment


      #52
      Last night's Panorama

      Mixed messages here from Platini.
      Referees must stop the game if there are any incidents of racial abuse, but if a player feels he's being abused and walks off the pitch of his own accord then he gets booked.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18338838

      Not sure how this will work. I guess Balotelli (for example) would need to go and tell the ref he's being abused, hope the ref believes him and stops the game.
      No mention of if the ref would need to hear / see the abuse personally.
      Sounds like a potential shitstorm in the making...

      Comment


        #53
        Last night's Panorama

        Platini is just holding to the line that it's up to the ref not the players to decide what is unacceptable. I don't think practically he has any choice there. But I hope it is accompanied by a clear edict to refs that players should not be subjected to racist abuse.

        Comment


          #54
          Last night's Panorama

          Yeah, it should be up to the ref.
          We don't need an arbitrary Totti abandonment.
          Let's hope they have the guts to actually do it.

          Comment


            #55
            Last night's Panorama

            Tournament hasn't even started yet.

            The problems occurred as the players began the session by jogging a lap of the pitch only to be greeted at one end of the stadium with monkey noises and loud jeers. On the second circuit, they were even louder and it was then the players decided not to go around again. "At least now we know what we can encounter," the Holland coach, Bert van Marwijk, said with heavy cynicism. "Very atmospheric."

            Uefa subsequently tried to deny that it was racially motivated, saying they had checked with the Dutch squad and had been told it was not thought to be of that nature. Instead, the official line is that a small part of the crowd was protesting about the fact that Krakow had not been made one of the host cities. Another theory that has been put forward is that Wisla's supporters did not want their stadium being used by anyone but their own club and were simply booing the Dutch players.
            The UEFA response is particularly despicable.

            Comment


              #56
              Last night's Panorama

              At a training session, for fuck's sakes. These people are really that hateful that they take the time to go watch a training session so they can racially abuse some black players?

              Teams should walk off the field. Fuck UEFA if they don't want to handle this.

              Comment


                #57
                Last night's Panorama

                Their ability to "handle this" is definitely called into question with their "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" response.

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                  #58
                  Last night's Panorama

                  Pathetic, insulting and embarassing.
                  This, to my mind, just puts even more pressure and onus on the refs. They are there to officiate the game not the whole stadium, after all.
                  Who'd want to be the ref who did actually stop a game, risking a potential full scale kick off in the stands?

                  Comment


                    #59
                    Last night's Panorama

                    But I hope it is accompanied by a clear edict to refs that players should not be subjected to racist abuse.
                    Yeah, it would have been nice. Unfortunately this seems to be the edict they actually get...

                    Comment


                      #60
                      Last night's Panorama

                      http://www.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/154386.html#

                      Van Bommel's made it clear that if this happens in a match, he won't wait for one his black teammates to make a complaint to the referee. Instead he'll go straight to the ref himself and if no action is taken, he'll lead the team off himself.

                      I think that's an important statement to make, as it ensures that the responsibility for making a protest is not left solely with those players who might be directly affected. There's always a chance that some may choose to 'suffer in silence' for fear of being made to adopt a victim role. If that makes sense.

                      I hope that Gerrard comes out with something similar, but I fear he won't.

                      Comment


                        #61
                        Last night's Panorama

                        I keep wanting to remember Michel Platini as the great player he was, but he keeps making sure that I am reminded that he is a dick.

                        Comment


                          #62
                          Last night's Panorama

                          He is a politician now. And by god, does it show.

                          Mark van Bommel is coming out of this well so far, and even more so if he actually follows through on his stated intentions. His comment about people who refused to accept what they heard being even more of a problem than those actually chanting is potentially explosive, as van Marwijk is being placed by his FA in that catergory.
                          May be time to seperate playing personality from actual personality in van Bommel's case?

                          Comment


                            #63
                            Last night's Panorama

                            His teammates have long maintained that that is the case, and this would seem to confirm it.

                            Comment


                              #64
                              Last night's Panorama

                              Blimey.
                              Clarence Seedorf has just said on the BBC's opener that black players should just 'ignore' the racist abuse.

                              Balls, Clarence.

                              Comment


                                #65
                                Last night's Panorama

                                I went with my brothers to the England v Ukraine match in Donetck last Tuesday. Despite being a bit dubious about going, not because of the content of the Panorama thing, which I thought was overly alarmist and xenophobic, there are racist football fans in every country in Europe, but because I thought it might just trigger a response from Ukrainian fans who weren’t massively happy at being described as a nation of knuckle-dragging fascists. Also one of my best mates, who’s Anglo Asian was convinced I was going to die if I went, and kept texting me in the lead-up to travelling over to ask me if I’d made my will out yet.

                                I also wasn’t massively happy about the idea that I felt reasonably happy about travelling there, and he wouldn’t have felt safe at all. The rumours about there not being many English fans travelling over, didn’t cheer me up massively either. I had paranoid visions of walking straight out the airport and getting our heads kicked in by an angry, righteous mob.

                                I needn’t have worried though. The Ukraine fans were great, handy really as we were sitting with them, rather than with the 3,000 or so English fans. And the atmosphere in the ground was amazing. 50,000 people whistling at the same time is an incredible fucking noise when you’re sitting in the middle of it. When I was a kid I used to watch Dynamo Kiev or Red Star Belgrade play on ‘Sportsnight’, with a crowd sounding like angry bees, except with horns and shit, and being there was exactly like that. It was mint.

                                I should also say that I saw a handful of black and asian England fans walking around Donetck completely happy and undisturbed. Also met a few Ukranian fans in replica strips before the match when we were sight-seeing and they were all massively friendly, piss-taking rivalry when the subject of the match came up, but that’s about it. Not a sniff of any trouble anywhere.

                                I felt bad for the Ukrainians really. They're not a massively wealthy country are they? and this was a chance for them to make some cash. Admittedly the people who run their hotels didn't help matters by trying to charge shitloads for a room over there (it went from £40 night before it was a scheduled England match, we bought our tickets before the draw see, to about ten times that afterwards), but that's the free-market for you, eh.

                                Also I really liked what I saw of Donetck, the city too. It’s got this amazing old stadium built at the same time as the 1980 Moscow Olympics, with an old black bakelite scoreboard with a white and yellow clock, loads and loads of evocative Soviet municipal and civic art, café’s, restaurants, food's good and dead chep and it's got a 50 foot statue of Lenin.

                                Um, anyway. Seeing as this docco helped give me some misgivings about going, thought i'd mention on the thread dedicated to it that they turned out to be - as far as Donetck was concerned anyway - a load of old bollocks.

                                Comment


                                  #66
                                  Last night's Panorama

                                  Great post and hardly surprising. It's very disappointing that so many people bought into the hysterical xenophobic crap spouted not just by panorama, but by the press in general.

                                  Comment


                                    #67
                                    Last night's Panorama

                                    szczeweeeeeeeee wrote: Great post and hardly surprising. It's very disappointing that so many people bought into the hysterical xenophobic crap spouted not just by panorama, but by the press in general.
                                    Steve the majority of people may be friendly in Ukraine, but there is a large minority of homophobe, rascist people in Eastern European who can be life-threatening to anyone who varies from the norm. As at most high-prestige events, the local authorities and police are probably doing their best to keep them away from the visiting supporters. Panorama have protrayed what I've heard from East Germany and friends visting Eastern Europe.

                                    Comment


                                      #68
                                      Last night's Panorama

                                      Why that is the case would probably need a thread of its own.

                                      Comment


                                        #69
                                        Last night's Panorama

                                        Cheers Steve.

                                        ... large minority of homophobe, rascist people in Eastern European who can be life-threatening to anyone who varies from the norm.
                                        Um, I wouldn't mind knowing where you got that from you know.

                                        Comment


                                          #70
                                          Last night's Panorama

                                          Mat, It's good that you had a positive experience in Ukraine, that does not mean that what Defensive-Minded (and the Panorama Documentary) is wrong.

                                          I am sure Jesse Owens didn't get much as much jip walking around Berlin during the 1936 Olympics as he would have received 1 year before or after......

                                          Countries and their nutters are always well-behaved when the eyes of the world are on them.

                                          Comment


                                            #71
                                            Last night's Panorama

                                            Cheers, dude.

                                            I'm not saying DM or the documentary are wrong as such, but they are in direct contradiction of what I experienced.

                                            I am instantly suspicious of any mainstream media attempts to demonise a country, its culture or its people. That doesn't apply to what DM said, but does apply to the Panorama documentary, and that's why I asked for DM's source really. I mean I dunno, he might live there or something.

                                            Comment


                                              #72
                                              Last night's Panorama

                                              Mat, I live in Berlin.

                                              Comment


                                                #73
                                                Last night's Panorama

                                                So you'd probably like to tell us what was the situation during the 1936 Olympics.

                                                "majority of people may be friendly in Ukraine, but there is a large minority of homophobe, rascist people in Eastern European who can be life-threatening to anyone who varies from the norm."

                                                This applies to any country in the world to be honest. You can find subhuman large minority of scum anywhere really, not only in eastern europe.

                                                Comment


                                                  #74
                                                  Last night's Panorama

                                                  Yeah, I think there's two different elements here.

                                                  Anecdotal stuff that you experience yourself or your friends and family might experience and anything that might be reported by the broadcast or mainstream media.

                                                  The latter as I say I have become deeply suspicious of. I don't know what your media is like in Germany but over here it is overwhelmingly, rigidly doctrinal centre-right. It allows very little leeway on this. Its one supposed fillip to anyone on the left are its occasional attacks on the far-right. These attacks though contain an insidious message, essentially saying only the centre-right are able to assess the level of danger within the far-right, because real political balance only exists within the centre-right, every other political position is essentially extremism.

                                                  As such when i'm told via this medium that an entire country is full of fascists, racists and bigots, I am sceptical. When I visit the country and don't find any evidence of a single fascist, racist or bigot, I am very, very sceptical.

                                                  Anecdotal evidence though, yeah of course i'm interested in that and of course i'll listen. It's a completely different thing though.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #75
                                                    Last night's Panorama

                                                    I don't think Panorama made any such suggestion. What the programme did imply is that the problem isn't being dealt with or only to a very low degree.

                                                    I wouldn't say that people are by definition more rascist in East Germany than West Germany. The problem is that in some areas rascism is accepted more by the general public. There are some areas in Brandenburg called "national befreite Zonen (national liberated zones), where it is dangerous for non-white people to go out in the evening. The observation I've made is that racism is worst in areas where barely any non-whites live. It's seems to be the case that racism is often based on fear and ignorance.

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