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    #76
    Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

    Moishe Shmul Xugustein wrote:
    gerontophile wrote:
    What happens when children all over the (baseball playing) world, see that A-Rod, yes him, fleet of foot and hard as fucking nails of bat, gets done? Not like its a shock, really is it?
    I expect it is a shock to some children who're constantly told not to take drugs, that only losers take drugs, that good sportsmanship is being clean, etc. The mixed message delivered by professional sports is that success is the most important thing, and that sometimes, some drugs are OK, and especially if you don't get caught, and that the more famous you are and more success you've had, the more likely it is you can just shrug and move on with your life. It's in the same category of confusing the act of parenting that Phelps is, I think, as both are ostensibly illegal acts that we condemn by sportsmen that are widely admired.
    (cant be arsed to edit this):

    '... we condemn...'

    Who is we?

    I dont condemn anyone who uses illegal substances as relaxation. Ever.

    and what does 'ostensibly' actually mean?

    Nah, matey, you are fighting a losing battle with this one. I see what you mean, and indeed, the idea of what you mean, ostensibly, is correct.

    But Phelps was just showing off. (paraphrase: 'I can beat you all, and I am still a normal stoner from Baltimore, so fuck you')

    That to me, is what kids can aspire to more, than the idea of being the best.

    Ignore the fact that you have children; ignore the fact that you must do the best for them; remember the possibility of when you were younger, sitting around a Playstation saying 'Fucking hell, thats a world record for the 100 metres freestyle ... I KNOW I can do that in reality' and then realise... someone actually did so.

    Comment


      #77
      Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

      gerontophile wrote:
      '... we condemn...'

      Who is we?
      Broadly speaking, "we" as in "our society." It's pretty inexact phrasing, I'll admit.

      I dont condemn anyone who uses illegal substances as relaxation. Ever.
      Personally I haven't gone down the path of distinguishing between "relaxation," "stimulation," "entertainment," "escape from the troubles of their depressing life," or all the various other reasons why they may choose to use illegal substances. I'd think, though, that there are varying levels of validity for the reasons driving someone to consume illegal substances.

      I see what you mean, and indeed, the idea of what you mean, ostensibly, is correct.
      Yay! Seriously though, the A-Roid situation is a lot worse than the Bongmeister Phelps incident. Drug use in pro sport - for the purposes of enhancing performance - is a semi-open secret that really could have a much worse effect on teenager's health than a photo of Phelps smoking pot: steroid (and other illicit performance-enhancing drug) use at the high school level in sports has seen a massive increase in the last ten years or so. And unlike pot, we do know for a fact what those types of substances do to your body.

      Comment


        #78
        Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

        I expect it is a shock to some children who're constantly told not to take drugs, that only losers take drugs, that good sportsmanship is being clean, etc.
        Then the fault is with those who continually say "only losers take drugs."
        Firstly, as Phelps shows, this is quite wrong. And secondly the idea that weed and anabolic steroids are in any way similar is pretty ludicrous. "Only wankers cheat" should be our message and "what you do in your own time is your own business."

        Comment


          #79
          Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

          It's a little more complicated than that given that pot's illegal.

          Comment


            #80
            Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

            So are steroids. So that part of the comparison cancels out.

            Comment


              #81
              Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

              hobbes wrote:
              And secondly the idea that weed and anabolic steroids are in any way similar is pretty ludicrous.
              No, that's just not true -- the way in which many societies, including US society, try portray drug takers as pariahs (in some cases effectively, in some not) clearly shows it's not "ludicrous" in the least. Taking either of those drugs at the time of certain competitions results in a ban from the competition or a forfeiting of medals. And as I wrote above, if it's shown that you've taken those drugs while you are, say, on a College scholarship, you can end up basically ruining your life and losing everything.

              "Only wankers cheat" should be our message and "what you do in your own time is your own business."
              The first one is surely correct, although in educational terms it may be interesting to explain to your children that many wankers apparently end up being really successful as a result of their performance-enhancing drug taking in sports. The second one is definitely wrong, since it very much is the business of many other people if what you do in your private life impacts them, and ends up impacting you in turn. See "losing your College scholarship and ruining your life" above. It's a lovely anarcho-libertarian view to hold, but so divorced from the reality of the world we live in as to be borderline-dangerous if you use it as an educational tool.

              Comment


                #82
                Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                on a College scholarship, you can end up basically ruining your life and losing everything.
                This is a massive exaggeration, no? I presume if you're caught having a toke while on a scholarship you might possibly lose that scholarship. Whether or not that is the case, presenting such an eventuality as "ruining your life and losing everything" is ludicrous, come on. It might briefly feel like that I suppose, but it's not remotely like that at all, and saying it is just scare tactics. Don't do drugs! You'll ruin your life and lose everything!

                Comment


                  #83
                  Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                  The second one is definitely wrong, since it very much is the business of many other people if what you do in your private life impacts them, and ends up impacting you in turn.
                  Are you still referring to Phelps there? Even if he is a flawed rolemodel (and I don't think that by having the odd toke he is), claiming that he has a wideranging "impact" is just hysterical. If some impressionable youth actually does consult the Yellow Pages for the number of his local weed pusherman, surely by blaming Phelps for that we relieve that kid from any kind of self-responsibility.

                  Surely it is a fact that most kids who have a Phelps poster on their wall and eat Corn Flakes are not going to decide to do drugs because Phelps said they could. If some do, then the problem is much more deep-seated than a celebrity's private conduct.

                  Again, it comes back to models of parenting. The failure resides not with Phelps, but with parents individually and parenting models in general.

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                    I think my line on this (and shove an "as a parent" in there somewhere if you like) is that it's just not reasonable to measure every adult's every action by the effect it might possibly have on children. I don't approve of the fucking hippy parents round here who skin up in front of their, and my, kids, because (a) if the kids follow suit and get caught, it's the kids who are fucked, and (b) the kids concerned are under 15, and there's good evidence that THC really may be harmful at that age. But Phelps didn't do that. So why drag the children, the poor children into it?

                    The argument about sponsorships is the only one that hangs together, I think, especially where the sponsorships are aimed at kids. So yeah, he should lose those deals.

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                      That should be the prerogative of the sponsors though; it should not be an automatic conclusion. When Phelps pushes Corn Flakes, he does so by virtue of junk cereals being supposedly nutritious meals, not because Kellogs products are a great way of satisfying the monster munchies. Surely there's no intrinsic connection between Phelps promoting consumer items and engaging in entirely unrelated activities privately.

                      This, of course, brings us back to the question of whether an adult enjoying the occasional toke is in fact really bad.

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                        ad hoc wrote:
                        on a College scholarship, you can end up basically ruining your life and losing everything.
                        This is a massive exaggeration, no? I presume if you're caught having a toke while on a scholarship you might possibly lose that scholarship.
                        Drug use while you're a sports scholarship, permitting many US kids to get a University degree who otherwise wouldn't/couldn't, is usually a very serious offense, and yes - plenty of people do lose those scholarships every year.

                        But let's discard the sports scholarship idea for a second, OK? Plenty of students can't pay the $20k-year tuition fees for their College, so they get federal aid, basically government-sponsored loans that are paid off at low interest rates once you get a job after College.

                        Oh, wait. Unless you are convicted of a drug offense, of course. The US Higher Education Act blocks any sort of education aid to anyone convicted of a drug crime, whether state or federal.

                        Surely that doesn't affect a lot of people, right? Nah. Only around 20,000 - 50,000 students a year are rejected. Your summer job flipping burgers is now your career, kid. (There are a few ways to try to get around that law, but it's not exactly simple and not everyone can do it. An appeal against that law has just been rejected. Yay...)

                        Whether or not that is the case, presenting such an eventuality as "ruining your life and losing everything" is ludicrous, come on. It might briefly feel like that I suppose, but it's not remotely like that at all, and saying it is just scare tactics.
                        Send me a private message and let me know next time you're in the US Southeast. I'll take you on a tour of one of the poorest counties in the state I worked in. Trust me, it doesn't *($(*#@$ "briefly feel like it" for some of those kids whose lives are much pretty much doomed to stocking the shelves of their Piggly Wiggly or IGA.

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                          G.Man wants a jihad wrote:
                          The second one is definitely wrong, since it very much is the business of many other people if what you do in your private life impacts them, and ends up impacting you in turn.
                          Are you still referring to Phelps there?
                          That was a response to the general "nobody's business what you do in your private life."

                          claiming that he has a wideranging "impact" is just hysterical
                          Didn't do that, and I don't think so.

                          If some impressionable youth actually does consult the Yellow Pages for the number of his local weed pusherman
                          I know that was meant to be a joke, but the reality of how drug use affects a lot of youths, especially in poorer rural areas, is pretty miserable.

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                            Are you going to offer any substantial points at all in the course of this thread, or yet more nebulous clouds of unjustified scorn and "trust me, I know, whereas you clearly don't even *read* all the German papers" ad verecundiam arguments?

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                              Abu Al Torotoro wrote:
                              yet more nebulous clouds of unjustified scorn
                              Look, it's clear you're going to hold a grudge because I tweaked your nose rhetorically a couple of times. If you aren't going to provide anything aside from personal attacks, at least please try to stay out of the some of the more serious discussions. It's really tiresome to have to pretend you're not trying to be hurtful and clever and engage real posters with real points at the same time.

                              Toro, if you want me to stop posting on WSC, just send me a personal message. A single PM, and I'm gone. Promise. I'd much rather have you honestly tell me that than have to deal with your haranguing over and over again because you've got a problem with me. Internet abuse just isn't worth it.

                              Comment


                                #90
                                Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                                Surely that doesn't affect a lot of people, right? Nah. Only around 20,000 - 50,000 students a year are rejected.
                                That's a mighty big range, Xugudoobeedoobeedoo. But you're right to point out the diabolical impact of the Higher Education Act's anti-drug provision on student loans. I didn't go to a whole lot of parties in college where pot was passed around, but I was always aware of where drugs were present and tried to stay the hell away from them because I couldn't afford to lose my loans.

                                Comment


                                  #91
                                  Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                                  Incashallah wrote:
                                  Surely that doesn't affect a lot of people, right? Nah. Only around 20,000 - 50,000 students a year are rejected.
                                  That's a mighty big range, Xugudoobeedoobeedoo.
                                  Yabba-dabba-doo! The numbers I can get vary by year -- I believe it was ~50k in 1999, for instance, and closer to ~30k two years ago. As of 2005, I believe ~200k at least had been denied federal aid for College on that basis alone (since 1999). If you have better data points, please let me know (they may exist on a gov't server somewhere - I got mine from anti-drug law campaign sites).

                                  But you're right to point out the diabolical impact of the Higher Education Act's anti-drug provision on student loans. I didn't go to a whole lot of parties in college where pot was passed around, but I was always aware of where drugs were present and tried to stay the hell away from them because I couldn't afford to lose my loans.
                                  Absolutely! And the incredible aggression with which some local and state authorities will prosecute cases is staggering, as well, with incredibly wide-ranging authority given to pick up anyone they suspect (even people completely peripheral and uninvolved) and prosecute them.

                                  Comment


                                    #92
                                    Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                                    xu - I have no desire to see you stop posting on WSC, and don't dare pretend I have suggested otherwise. But if you're going to troll around accusing people of being pro-Hamas, talking nonsense about pro-Taliban rallies, and adopting this o0verbearing tone of "don't you know anything, haven't you even read the stuff I have?" whenever you encounter the slightest disagreement, don't expect not to be called on it.

                                    Everyone else is, myself included. Grow a pair.

                                    Comment


                                      #93
                                      Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                                      Abu Al Torotoro wrote:
                                      if you're going to troll around accusing people of being pro-Hamas, talking nonsense about pro-Taliban rallies, and adopting this o0verbearing tone of "don't you know anything, haven't you even read the stuff I have?" whenever you encounter the slightest disagreement, don't expect not to be called on it.
                                      Which has so much to do with

                                      * this thread
                                      * the angry and insulting tone of the posts you aimed at me in this thread
                                      * your lack of any actual engagement with most of what's being said in this thread, as you're flitting in and out, lobbing insults at me
                                      * the enormous amount of trolling I've apparently committed in this thread

                                      Thanks for bringing the Taliban and Hamas into a thread on Phelps, drugs, and (by now) education and US policy. The only reason why you bring them up is because I've been involved in a thread about them somewhere else, and now you'll dig 'em up to spew more vitriol and derail the thread. Good job, you got the spotlight. G-d beware we end up talking about the thread's subject matter.

                                      You've basically admitted you're holding a grudge against me for things I've said elsewhere (do you keep a little list somewhere, to be updated with your latest grudge item?) and will now follow me around and "call" me "on it" in completely unrelated threads. Wow. Just wow.

                                      Comment


                                        #94
                                        Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                                        Xugu, I think it would be helpful if you restated your entire position on Phelps and his bong.

                                        Nobody's business but bad for the kids?

                                        Overreaction but let's not under-react either?

                                        Okay as long as he doesn't get photographed?

                                        Let him do what he wants but don't sponsor him?

                                        He should know better but so should we all?

                                        Comment


                                          #95
                                          Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                                          Sultan of Bruno wrote:
                                          Xugu, I think it would be helpful if you restated your entire position on Phelps and his bong.
                                          My position to Phelps was a reaction to another post. I think it is legitimate for parents, especially in the US, to feel a degree of concern about prominent and successful sportsmen and sportswomen who are promoted (often directly to their children) as figures to idolize, who then end up being exposed as having taken (usually illegal) drugs.

                                          Comment


                                            #96
                                            Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                                            QUOTE:
                                            If some impressionable youth actually does consult the Yellow Pages for the number of his local weed pusherman

                                            I know that was meant to be a joke, but the reality of how drug use affects a lot of youths, especially in poorer rural areas, is pretty miserable.
                                            I know that was meant to be aside, but it ought to be worth noting that the drug problem in those areas probably has very, very little to do with whether Olympians smoke a doobie now and then. Which is what I was referring to.

                                            Comment


                                              #97
                                              Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                                              G.Man wants a jihad wrote:
                                              the drug problem in those areas probably has very, very little to do with whether Olympians smoke a doobie now and then
                                              You'll note I didn't say that Phelps was to blame for that.

                                              Comment


                                                #98
                                                Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                                                Then why bring it up?

                                                Comment


                                                  #99
                                                  Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                                                  The Milwaukee Admirals see the humour in the situation.

                                                  "Thus, the Milwaukee Admirals present “Don’t Be Like Mike” Night at their game on Thursday, February 19th at 7:00 pm versus the Rockford IceHogs.

                                                  All fans who are graduates of a DARE program (Drug Abuse Resistance Education) can get into the game for just $2 by bringing their DARE graduation certificate to the Admirals’ office or the Bradley Center box office. In addition, anyone with the name Michael, Phelps, Mary Jane, Cheech, Chong, Weed (Wied) or anyone who has won an Olympic Gold Medal can also get their ticket for only $2.

                                                  “I, along with Nancy Reagan, want to encourage people to not do drugs,” said Admirals President Jon Greenberg. “As an organization the Milwaukee Admirals don’t condone or encourage the use of illegal drugs, including, but not limited to marijuana, or anabolic steroids for that matter.”

                                                  The Ads will also be giving away a weed wacker, courtesy of National Ace Hardware, that will be signed by the team and if the Admirals score with 4:20 left on the clock in any period one lucky fan will win a season ticket for the 2009-10 season. The number 420 is often known as the police code for illegal drug use.

                                                  Plus, to ensure that no one ends up in the same predicament as Michael Phelps, the team will provide a document shredder at the DigiCopy Information Table outside section 225 so fans can bring any embarrassing or incriminating photos to be destroyed."


                                                  Gawd Bless Minor League Hockey.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

                                                    That is outstanding. I assume people with the name Pot, Doobie, Doobage, Splif, Roach, Bong, Ganja, Fatty, Jay or Stoner also get in for $2.

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