Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

[hobbes]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

kellogg customers don't expect a hip-hop obsessed kid from baltimore ever to smoke dope, even on his holidays. corn flakes shrink the brain

Which is odd, because they were originally supposed to stop you wanking.

[Guest]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

dogbeak wrote:

Why is it so hilarious that someone may legitimately ask whether to be seen taking drugs (even ones as arguably inoffensive as marijuana) isn't a bad idea for someone like Phelps?

because it's none of your business?

Yes, it is my business if someone is built up as a role model for children by the adoring media, and is given millions and millions of dollars to pose with and advertise children-focused products, such as corn flakes: because if I am a parent, and my children see that this guy who is built up (and readily accepts the money for) as a role model and superhero for them, and this amazing guy just so happens to be portrayed as an illegal drug user in the media, then it creates a dangerous parenting situation.

I am aghast that this is apparently difficult to understand.

To repeat and respond to Incashalaramadingdong, I am not making a moral judgment about smoking pot and I don't care if it's legal or not, and I hope Michael Phelps privately fills his 6000-gallon lungs with all the mary jane he can find, but there is a complex parenting situation arising from having children's role models presented as illegal drug users. You can mock the backward moral stance and hypocritical societal approach to drugs in the US all you want. Hell, I've done it often myself. But given you're educating a child, this is the type of confusion and mixed messages that is very important to avoid during their formative years.

Maybe you don't care whom your daughter will end up idolizing and choose as role models (I have no idea how old she is, or what role models she's chosen, so I could be totally behind the curve here). For my children, until they reach an age at which my influence re: role models is pretty much moot (say, 12 or 13), I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable for society to push, promote, and pay for role models who are known to take drugs (at least in the fairly recent past). It was none of my business what GWB did in his youth, or for that matter Barack Obama, who in his book admitted to being "a junkie" (in his 20s, I think). I doubt I'm alone in that discomfort, and frankly, yes, as a parent it is my business.

[G-Man]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

But given you're educating a child, this is the type of confusion and mixed messages that is very important to avoid during their formative years.

If you let marketers and their spokespeople do your child's educating, then perhaps you have no business bringing up children in the first place. If the conduct of public figures can undo the careful indoctrination under your tutelage, then perhaps the failure resides with you, not the celebrity.

The Phelps saga, if anything, offers a teaching opportunity. Outrage and hand-wringing is a most useless response.

[beak]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

xugumad wrote:

Yes, it is my business if someone is built up as a role model for children by the adoring media [...]

what is to stop you from, say, taking out your ire on the media then?

as has already been stated, phelps hasn't consciously put himself forward as a role model for any body, he has had it thrust on upon him by people who have now had their hands burnt by him being a bit of a naughty boy.

but there is a complex parenting situation arising from having children's role models presented as illegal drug users.

who knows, they might look at all these people who have managed to take drugs and achieve great things and realise that it is not that serious an issue.

You can mock the backward moral stance and hypocritical societal approach to drugs in the US all you want. Hell, I've done it often myself.

noted.

But given you're educating a child, this is the type of confusion and mixed messages that is very important to avoid during their formative years.

again, what is the mixed message? all these scare stories i have heard about marijuana use might no be true? that i might have to tell my (purely hypothetical) children that actually it's not that big a deal?

It was none of my business what GWB did in his youth, or for that matter Barack Obama, who in his book admitted to being "a junkie" (in his 20s, I think). I doubt I'm alone in that discomfort, and frankly, yes, as a parent it is my business.

i've excised the bit about what age my daughter is because i don't have a daughter and i'm not sure where you are pulling all that from.

anyway. the point is that phelps and his sponsors have no role whatsoever in raising your kids. that's your job, i'm afraid, and i'd imagine the best you can do is explain why just because admirable figure x takes drugs, doesn't make it a good idea.

to put it another way, what is the lest level of fame i would have to attain before my inadvertent role in other people's parenting would have to become a consideration?

[jason voorhees]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

People do realize that Phelps not only is from, but currently lives in B-more, yes ?

[Reed John]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

Seth Myers put it well on Saturday Night Live:

What if kids ask their parents "Michael Phelps smokes pot, why can't I?"
Tell them "You can, just as soon as you win 12 Olympic gold medals for your country."

[Guest]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

dogbeak wrote:

i've excised the bit about what age my daughter is because i don't have a daughter and i'm not sure where you are pulling all that from.

That paragraph was directed at Inca, as the introductory sentence said. Look, it's obvious we disagree on how to educate children, and let's leave it at that. I don't think there'll be any further insight gained from us talking here.

[Wyatt Earp]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

Your position, then, is that children's education about complex issues should on no account contain any complexity?

In any case, I don't know whether my kids will become stoners, and I hope not because stoners are at least as boring as drunks, but if they do, I doubt it'll be because of some bloke who can swim really fast.

[Reed John]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

That makes a lot of sense to me.

[Guest]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

Wa ayat al Urbi wrote:

Your position, then, is that children's education about complex issues should on no account contain any complexity?

Put simply, I think that there are many points during a child's upbringing where a parent will legitimately want to avoid confusion and mixed messages on important issues. This isn't equivalent to containing no complexity, but as I said above, there's no reason to continue the thread along these lines as it'd turn into pages of people arguing endlessly (and dully) about drugs and education.

if they do, I doubt it'll be because of some bloke who can swim really fast.

Using a reduction ad absurdum doesn't change the undeniable fact that many children have and will continue to be easily impressed and influenced by superhero-like characters promoted relentlessly by the media and ubiquitous sponsorships.

[Wyatt Earp]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

How "undeniable" is it, though, really? The whole discourse of "role models" seems to have been accepted really uncritically, especially in the US, without much of an evidence base that I'm aware of.

[G-Man]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

I asked G-Teen, 14, about that yesterday. "If Ryan Giggs snorted cocaine, would that make snorting coke more acceptable to you?"

Having established that I was putting to him only a hypothesis ("Er, do you see Giggs sniffing and rubbing his nose all the time?"), he was still unsure where I was going with that question. Upshot was that he didn't think the behaviour of celebrities whom he admires had any relevance to his own personal choices.

Perhaps my son has his head better screwed on than other kids, but it comes back to a point xugumad did not address: that the idea of young people being "misled" by the example of supposed rolemodels represents a failure in parenting. If a kid smokes a joint because Phelps does it, the fault resides not with Phelps, but with the parents.

Pity this discussion is in the Sports ghetto, not in World. Can't the admins move it there? I think it's an important discussion.

[Brandenburger Toro]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

Barack Obama, who in his book admitted to being "a junkie"

No, no he didn't. He admitted to (probably exaggerated) drug use, but did not use that term in self description. The relevant passage is;

"Junkie. Pothead. That's where I'd been headed: the final, fatal role of the young would-be black man. . . . I got high [to] push questions of who I was out of my mind."

For someone who is so fond of the "tsk, don't you know anything?" schtick, you play remarkably fast and loose with facts.

[Guest]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

Abu Al Torotoro wrote:
[quote]

Barack Obama, who in his book admitted to being "a junkie"

"Junkie. Pothead. That's where I'd been headed: the final, fatal role of the young would-be black man. . . . I got high [to] push questions of who I was out of my mind."

Given that he says he actually did get "high" and referred to "Junkie. Pothead." as where he was headed, I don't really see a big problem there. Point is, he admitted to apparently more than just "I didn't inhale" type drug use.

For someone who is so fond of the "tsk, don't you know anything?" schtick, you play remarkably fast and loose with facts.

Try issuing corrections without the touchy self-righteousness and smug self-satisfaction. Not only is it unattractive and small-minded, but it exposes fairly severe maturity issues, too. Pretty sad that you'd act this immature (Gotcha! Hnrf hnrf hnrf!) in this particular thread.

[Guest]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

Wa ayat al Urbi wrote:

How "undeniable" is it, though, really? The whole discourse of "role models" seems to have been accepted really uncritically, especially in the US, without much of an evidence base that I'm aware of.

I am making that claim based on two sources of knowledge. Firstly, and perhaps of greater validity than my own experiences is the existence of studies that seek to analyze how children and youths relate to TV role models etc. If I remember correctly (it's been a while since I trawled Ingenta, JSTOR et al), there's a ton of those studies out there. I don't recall which ones support this theory and which ones don't, to be frank, but here's a start:

* Hoffner, Cynthia (2005) Young Adults' Wishful Identification With Television Characters: The Role of Perceived Similarity and Character Attributes. Media Psychology 7(4)

* Martin, Craig A. (2000) Do role models influence teenagers’ purchase intentions and behavior?. Journal of Consumer Marketing 17(5)

* King, Michelle and Moulton, Karen (1996) The effects of television role models on the career aspirations of African American junior high school students. Journal of Career Development 23 (2)

Secondly, and probably strongest in my mind is my own professional experience with children and adolescents in the US. I didn't work in that environment for more than about four years, and it wasn't in a field that applied scientific rigor, so it's anecdotal evidence. Nonetheless, given what I saw, it was very clear that the exposure to figures the media held up as heroic did influence what children thought of as important and admirable. At one point the coolest guy the boys around me admired was Stone Cold Steve Austin because of his fake fighting credentials (and what the culture around them portrayed as a cool guy, appearances on 'normal' media events, TV ads, etc.). As recently as a year and a half ago, Chuck Liddell was held by many of the same boys (age group wise) as a cool guy to admire, even though I know for a fact that most of their parents don't watch the events Liddell performs on (so they didn't get that from their parents but from their environment, friends, etc). In the non-tough-crowd environment, adoration for sports stars amongst adolescents in the US is pretty much a way of life in lower-income environments (kids going to private schools and even good state schools acquire a different focus in many cases).

[Reed John]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

Wyatt makes an important point. This business about famous people as role models is always passed around uncritically.

I imagine that the only kids for whom athletes are really importatn role models are kids living in communities where there aren't any other more immediate role models such as boys growing up with absent fathers in neighborhoods where there are almost no gainfully and legally employed men. It's a pretty common situation, sadly. So their role models are either gangsters, rappers or basketball stars. They aren't routinely exposed to any better ideas of how to rise above their circumstances.

But the sort of kids who idolize Michael Phelps are, for the most part, involved in competitive swimming. These are usually middle to upper class kids. These are not the generally sort that are starving for exposure to positive role models.

Of course, there are some swimming programs for not-so-well off kids, but those kids are, by definition, in some kind of structured program and are probably under constant guidance from their coach and mentor and aren't simply relying on Michael Phelps to show them the way.

[Guest]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

Reed of the Valley People wrote:

Wyatt makes an important point. This business about famous people as role models is always passed around uncritically.

I imagine that the only kids for whom athletes are really importatn role models are kids living in communities where there aren't any other more immediate role models such as boys growing up with absent fathers in neighborhoods where there are almost no gainfully and legally employed men.

I absolutely and categorically reject that idea, given that I've seen plenty of kids (from lower-income households) - with gainfully employed fathers - idolize role models pushed by the media.

But the sort of kids who idolize Michael Phelps are, for the most part, involved in competitive swimming.

I think that's a pretty big assertion, but even if it were true, it would still be problematic for him to be seen as the most successful swimmer *ever* and still a drug user at the same time.

[G-Man]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

Still no word about whether you think there is a (large-scale) parenting failure if role models have such an extraordinary measure of influence.

[Guest]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

G.Man wants a jihad wrote:

Still no word about whether you think there is a (large-scale) parenting failure if role models have such an extraordinary measure of influence.

I think it's immaterial to the point whether the exposure of a heavily-promoted heroic figure as a drug user is problematic - at certain stages of a child's upbringing - for parenting. Here's why:

There's no doubt that really good parenting can avoid a lot of the problems that arise from children idolizing sports figures. I'd much rather have my children idolizing Einstein, Newton, Kästner, or Twain than, say, Kobe Bryant. Even "idolizing" is too strong a word. I'd like to think that my children will to some extent admire those figures' achievements and try to see them as an inspiration.

But I think it's illusory and self-deceiving to assume that it's a "failure" of parenting when children do end up idolizing role models that end up having an extraordinary amount of influence. Our world, and arguably the US in particular, is getting better and better at trying to influence and shape young minds, whether through targeted commercials on morning TV shows, branded cereals (Wheaties had Steve Austin, btw), etc. I'm sure there's an entire dour school of cultural criticism out there trying to analyze the cultural-hegemonic aspects of what's happening to our youth as a result thereof. That's why I think it would be enormously arrogant to brand the parents who cannot stop or influence their children sufficiently to avoid this sort of influential hero-worship as "failures." (not saying you're doing that, btw) Although I don't want to fall into the 'these parents do their best' trap, in many cases the constraints those parents operate under (multiple jobs, extremely expensive child day care, etc) limits the amount of attention they can dedicate to having their kids not think that some sports star is the best, and they want to be just like him. In fact, I expect that quite a few parents were thrilled to see the media pushing Phelps as a heroic figure -- his portrayal is as a clean-cut, hard-working guy who actually went to College, and became the most successful at his sport, ever. That's a pretty nice contrast to the usual trash-talking thugs that end up being idolized so often.

If there's a "large-scale failure" to be found, it's the large-scale societal failure to properly enable good parenting by not putting enormous economic pressure on having children. Germany has some really good ideas of how to handle this. Many other countries don't.(G-man, I think you can read those links -- I'm afraid there are no English versions, sorry)

[Reed John]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

I absolutely and categorically reject that idea, given that I've seen plenty of kids (from lower-income households) - with gainfully employed fathers - idolize role models pushed by the media.

Of course kids are going to be impressed with people who are rich and famous. I didn't suggest otherwise. That's going to be true regardless of their circumstances. And that's not necessarily bad either. A kid could do a lot worse than wanting to be the next, for example, Bobby Orr or Cal Ripken.

A positive male role models in boy's life - their dad, their coach, somebody else's dad down the block - will be able to offset a lot of the influence of "the Media" or whatever by saying "Look son, these are the facts of life." In that way the impact of the sports figure or other media figure is dramatically mitigated.

But kids who don't have anyone to step in between them and the unrealistic and/or unhealthy role models are the ones who will be in trouble.

I think "The Media," a largely unhelpful and too general term, is taking too much of the blame here. After all, the notion of heroes and role models long predates corporate sponsorships, TV, even pro sports. I'm sure fathers in ancient time had to temper their kids enthusiasm to be like Achilles or Perseus.

But the sort of kids who idolize Michael Phelps are, for the most part, involved in competitive swimming.

I think that's a pretty big assertion, but even if it were true, it would still be problematic for him to be seen as the most successful swimmer *ever* and still a drug user at the same time.

In the initial, er, wake of the Olympics, he was pretty big stuff all around, especially in Baltimore, but now that seems to have died down. Most kids who get into swimming because of him are going to quickly realize it's boring as fuck and will quit. Then their sports role models will more likely be those playing their favorite sports. The kids who enjoy swimming will continue to look up to him.

I don't see why it's problematic. It shows that the occasional bong hit doesn't matter much to one's athletic success. While we might not like our kids to know that, it's true.

[Bruno]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

Twain?

Veneration of Mark Twain is one of the roots of our current intellectual stalemate.

[Guest]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

Reed of the Valley People wrote:

It shows that the occasional bong hit doesn't matter much to one's athletic success. While we might not like our kids to know that

I think that's a reasonable encapsulation of the argument I'm making here. I don't believe it is helpful for many parents to have mixed messages sent by heroic role models because children can be impressionable, and you - as a parent - may not want that confusion in their education at that particular point in time.

it's true.

That's the problem - it may or may not be true, depending on the individual, the drugs consumed, the sport they play, the rest of their life at that point, etc. Professional sports is chock-full of players that ended up either not having a good a career or wasting their chances entirely due to drugs. In the US, this is particularly noteworthy due to alcohol/drug abuse at the high school and college level -- tons of kids wash out every year because of that: One day you have a free College education and a bright future. The next day, you took a bong hit at the wrong time, your scholarship is revoked, your College place is gone, and your life is pretty much screwed up. This happens to a surprising number of people. That is the nuance that I want to be able to explain to my kids in an environment free of confusing mixed messages. If they think 'well Phelps smoked pot and look how well he did' it may very well influence their decision-making poorly at a later point in their lives.

[Guest]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

Sultan of Bruno wrote:

Twain?

As a kid I loved reading Twain (specifically the two Tom Sawyer books and Huckleberry Finn) and I recall Twain being the first writer I consciously admired (i.e. thought highly of) because of the feeling of 'being there' on the raft with Huck or painting the fence with Tom that he gave the reader. I'd be pretty happy if my children enjoyed his stuff as much as I did, rather than some of the dreary-dull children's books popular these days.

[Bruno]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

If they think 'well Phelps smoked pot and look how well he did' it may very well influence their decision-making poorly at a later point in their lives.

It'd be a failure of parenting indeed if one's kid couldn't figure out that smoking pot probably isn't something Phelps relied on very heavily on his road to success.

Everybody tell their kids not to drink while they're at it. (But drinking is legal!) I'll tell my kid pot makes you temporarily stupid plus warm fuzzies. I'll expect him to realize that temporary stupidity only lends itself to certain situations, and that frequent temporary stupidity is a bad road to be on. Just like with drinking, basically, without the risk of physical addiction (but I suppose with the risk of getting arrested).

[Wyatt Earp]

Have we done OMG Michael Phelps smoked pot yet?

xugumad wrote:

The next day, you took a bong hit at the wrong time, your scholarship is revoked, your College place is gone, and your life is pretty much screwed up.

The problem there is surely precisely the punitive attitude to cannabis that you're seeking to perpetuate.