NBA Playoffs 2008

[Reed John]

NBA Playoffs 2008

On the rivalry point, I think the argument is really one of semantics, with Reed having a higher bar for declaring something a truly great rivalry. Reed, would you say that most great rivalries in American sports occur in college, where teams are generally close in location, pull from the same talent base and have competed over and over in tight competition for decades?

I would agree with that. I think good pro rivalries are usually transient and therefore cannot ever be classic. Patriots-Colts now, Raiders-Steelers in the 1970s, Avalanche-Red Wings a few years ago. Even the Ravens and Titans had a pretty good thing for a short spell.

However, regional rivalries seem so maintain their animosity even if the teams aren't good at the time. Eagles-Giants, Montreal-Toronto in anything, Devils-Rangers, etc. These would be rivalries regardless of the teams involved.

Also there are some teams that aren't so much rivals as simply the objects of universal and justified hatred. Washington thinks the Cowboys are its great rivals, but I don't think Redskins fans hate the Cowboys any more than anybody else. Same with the Yankees.

[jason voorhees]

NBA Playoffs 2008

Yes. Boston fans don't care about the Lakers and Lakers fans don't care about Boston.

That's why Jack Nicholson banned anyone from wearing Celtics shirts on the film set of The Departed.

That's why from the USA Today 'A sign in the TD Banknorth Garden featured a scowling Jack Nicholson with the words, "L.A. Can't Handle the Truth."
It's a play off Nicholson's famous line from A Few Good Men; "The Truth" is the nickname of Boston Celtics forward Paul Pierce.'

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

NBA Playoffs 2008

Right, I'm about to throw a huge elephant into the room, and I'm sorry if it's utterly inappropriate, but was there ever a time where the Celtics-Lakers thing was based on the racial makeup of the players? Only I remember when Larry Bird was Boston's main player, he seemed to be Boston's top hero not only because he was brilliant but because he was the last great white American baller? I saw the highlights of the opening finals game and all of Boston's players this year were distinctly not of an Irish-American background?

I'm probably poking at a fire that doesn't exist, don't flame me for suggesting it, just wondered if there ever was a factor in supporting one or the other about race?

[Incandenza]

NBA Playoffs 2008

Man, I could write for about an hour trying to answer all of that.

The Boston Red Sox were the last baseball team to have a black player and the city had a lot of racial tension through the 1970s with school busing, but for Celtics fans, Bill Russell is a god to them, and the teams in the 80s had Robert Parrish and Dennis Johnson.

Black players have long complained about Boston being racist, though.

On the other hand, here's a JA Adande story on the Celtics and race.

[Soccer Scrimmage]

NBA Playoffs 2008

The article Inca linked to is a good primer on the subject. But while Adande makes some good points, the fact is that a disproportionate number of Celtics greats have been white: Bird, McHale, Heinsohn, Havlicek, Cousy. And as Inca points out, many players have felt Boston was a racist place to play, not the least of whom was Bill Russell.

The Lakers, on the other hand, have (like most teams) generally had great black players: Chamberlain, Johnson, Worthy, Jabbar, Baylor.

More important, though, is that during the 80s, the two teams were not only of contrasting makeups, but their styles of play were described in ways that fit in with racial stereotypes. The Celtics were thought of as 'gritty' and 'smart', able to overcome their lack of athleticism with hard work and savvy. The Lakers, on the other hand, were considered a flashy team with great athletes.

So to answer your question, yes, race has strongly colored (no pun intended) this rivalry.

[Kurt Bafokeng]

NBA Playoffs 2008

a disproportionate number of Celtics greats have been white

The article makes the point though that this is mainly because Boston just had the largest number of great players in the 1960s when a larger number in any team still was white.

If the connections could be drawn so easily, I suppose we wouldn't find any black players in Atlanta or Charlotte.

(I am not ignoring the fact that Boston indeed did and maybe still does have more racial tensions than the average American city, I just think making the Celtics a symbol for that is a bit unfair)

[ursus arctos]

NBA Playoffs 2008

One can definitely make the argument that Boston is a more hostile environment for a black athlete than either Atlanta or Charlotte. The surrounding regions may well be less progressive on racial issues, but the cities themselves are anything but.

And the fact is that the Bird/McHale Celtics were adopted by a knucklehead element of US sports fans (not just in Boston), who think that a player's color is of primary importance and rage about the NBA being "too black". It wasn't necessarily the club's fault, though, as any NBA team would have fallen over themselves to sign players like Bird, McHale, Walton and Ainge, and all NBA teams tend to favor white players over marginally more talented black guys for an 11th or 12th man spot.

I enjoyed Bill Simmons' sort of preview of the series here . He has always been at his best when writing about the NBA.

Here is his take on Game 1.

[jason voorhees]

NBA Playoffs 2008

That's something we see far too much in the NBA thanks to overexpansion: Second bananas asked to be lead guys; third bananas asked to be second bananas; and sidekicks asked to be third bananas. The ideal "third banana" should be someone who isn't consistent enough to be great, but good enough to have a game-to-game impact and occasionally carry you for a game. Well, that's Lamar Odom. When he's playing particularly well, the Lakers are nearly unbeatable. When he's playing OK, or worse, they can still compete and win. Perfect spot for him.

(And yes, I still believe -- fervently -- Lamar the Choke Artist from the Clippers will rear his head at some point during the '08 playoffs. People can change, but not that much. Even Angelina Jolie. ... I don't care how many kids she has, how normal she seems and how much good she does, deep down, she's still the crazy woman who wore Billy Bob Thornton's blood around her neck a few years ago. Remember we talked about this after Odom bricks two huge freebies in Boston.) .........

.......Gasol might be the most intriguing Finals character from an "Anything's Possible" standpoint: I could see him getting frustrated by the depth and physicality of Boston's frontline; I could see him tossing up a steady stream of 20-15s and 30-10s as the Lakers cruise to a title; I could see him breaking Cliff Robinson's record for "Most eye rolls, grimaces, hand waves and screams at the roof after a bad call in the Finals" (set in '92 against the Bulls); I could see him wearing a beret during the championship ceremony, smoking unfiltered Marlboros and repeatedly hugging someone who looks skankier than Amy Winehouse. Again, I'm prepared for anything.......

.....To the Celtics, because this is their ace in the hole -- basically, any scenario in which Kobe decides his teammates either look scared or might not come through, followed by him going into "Teen Wolf" mode for the rest of the game. When he did this successfully in Games 1 and 5 of the Spurs series, it worked because San Antonio didn't have the right personnel to defend him. Technically, Boston has the right personnel -- Pierce and Posey swapping turns, Perkins and KG roving and protecting the rim -- but this hinges on Rivers playing the right guys (never a sure thing) and Kobe only going into "screw it, I'm destroying everybody" mode once or twice for the series instead of four or five times. It's the most compelling subplot of the series: Now that he's THIS close to a title, how will Kobe react if his teammates choke in a pivotal game? Will we see that same "trust" in the system? Or is he so freaking good that it won't matter?

(Random thought: The Celtics have battled some terrific scorers in high-stakes games in my lifetime, and I was lucky enough to witness some of those battles in person, whether it was Andrew Toney, Dominique Wilkins, Isiah Thomas, young MJ, young Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson or, most recently, young LeBron. But we've never battled anyone quite like Kobe in his prime. I cannot emphasize this strongly enough: I'm abjectly terrified of the guy. I cannot even fathom what it will be like to root against the Lakers -- in-person, in an electric atmosphere, with the history practically suffocating everybody there -- as an assassin like Kobe tries to fend off my beloved Celtics for the title. I keep thinking of that famous Sports Illustrated photo of MJ's final shot in Utah, all those fans watching that shot heading toward the hoop, all of them screaming, all of them knowing what's about to happen. Will that be us? Will there be a photo like that with me and my father in it? Or will the reverse happen -- a happy photo of Allen or Pierce shooting that same shot? By the way, I haven't eaten a full meal in four days. I'm not kidding.)......

.....(By the way, I think Phil Jackson gets my vote as "Guy I'd Most Want As My Grandfather If I Were a College Student," narrowly edging Jack Nicklaus and Jack Nicholson. Think about it: Jackson is like a walking fortune cookie, he's a great guy, he's a basketball savant, he'd cut you motivational tapes and buy you inspiring books if your grades fell, he'd take you to Pearl Jam concerts during the summers and, if that's not enough, he probably has a great weed connection. Really no downside to being related to the Zen Master.)....

OMG.

That's some brilliance. It's funny because it's true and all of that.

And here's his support of Reed: "(By the way, I disagreed with Bob's serious rebuttal to my intentionally ridiculous column. Both sides need to win for them to have a rivalry; if only one side is winning, then it's a feud and that's all. I covered this in pages 183-186 of my book in the chapter about the Yankees-Red Sox feud -- complete with analysis of Webster's official definition of the word "rivalry" -- a feud that never achieved "rivalry" status until Oct. 21, 2004. From 1959 through 1984, the Celtics and Lakers were feuding and that's it. And if you disagree with that, take it up with Webster.)"

And his support of myself re: start times: "To the biggest distraction of the Finals: Late start times (9:15 p.m. for the East Coast games!!!!) coupled with the suddenly interminable length of 2008 playoff games (thanks to extended TV timeouts). We might see the first four-hour NBA game that doesn't have an overtime. I'm not kidding. By the way, I love the NBA, it's my favorite professional sport, and I like everyone I've ever met who runs the league ... but how does the NBA plan to create a new generation of fans when the fourth quarters for the greatest series in 15 years will be ending after midnight? Didn't they learn anything from baseball, the dumbest sport on the planet and a sport that now has no fans under the age of 20?"

[Incandenza]

NBA Playoffs 2008

Chuck Klosterman has a chapter on Celtics/Lakers and race in his book Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs. Most of it (save the first page and a few pages in the middle) is on Google Books. He mentions a David Halberstam observation that Magic Johnson had a rather secure, middle class childhood, while Larry Bird grew up in poverty. So they both had the sort of opposite socio-economic backgrounds of what one might expect from their race.

[Reed John]

NBA Playoffs 2008

"That's why Jack Nicholson banned anyone from wearing Celtics shirts on the film set of The Departed. "

Jack Nicholson is an insane old man. Of course there are a few fans, Simmons included, who still obsess about the 1980s but I don't think that's typical. When I lived in the Boston area, I never heard anybody talk about the Lakers. They just wanted the Celtics to not suck (as they did when I lived there). There seemed to be a lot more schadenfreude about the Knicks.

A rivalry is like a fire. You have to continue to fuel it and stoke it for it to stay lit. If you let it go for 20 years, it dies out. You can light a new fire on the same spot, but it's not the same.

Simmons distinction between a feud and a rivalry is interesting. But again, New York vs. Boston pulls in a lot of other sources of antagonism between the cities and the sports fans. Plus, there are all those people in Connecticut who must chose their allegiance and that starts fights in school yards and bars and so forth. You just don't have that with LA-Boston.

[ursus arctos]

NBA Playoffs 2008

Not a bad night for Herr Mondschein.

[Incandenza]

NBA Playoffs 2008

Well, let's hope the home-friendly referring continues into games 3-through-hopefully-5.

Leon Powe went to the free-throw line more in 14 minutes than the Lakers did in the entire game.

[ursus arctos]

NBA Playoffs 2008

Not directly playoff-related, but interesting (and quite sad) nonetheless.

"60 per cent of retired NBA players go broke five years after their NBA paycheques stop arriving"

Full story here.

[jason voorhees]

NBA Playoffs 2008

The problem is, you're getting all of this money at the worst age. In your 20's, you're getting used to the fact that you actually have money to buy the shit you couldn't when you were a kid. Top of the line stereos, tvs, toys, video games, etc. It's like the backlash against your youth.

By the time you're in your mid-30s, you realize all of that shit didn't really matter anyway.

A few years ago I had a list of every muscle car I wanted to buy and restore, jersey to buy, soccer game on video to get, etc. Now, I realize collecting shit is pretty much a waste. Studies show that kids rarely pick up the same tastes/likes for collections as their parents, and that's the only valid reason to start a collection.

So the answer is yes, I'm selling all of my wrestling figures and Mitchell & Ness and Stall & Dean jerseys.

[Kurt Bafokeng]

NBA Playoffs 2008

Just CHECKin:
Do NBA players really get an actual check at the end of the week or month?

[Reed John]

NBA Playoffs 2008

Hmmm...let's talk about those jerseys. Whaddya got?

[ursus arctos]

NBA Playoffs 2008

Kurt, it would be most likely be a wire transfer/direct deposit every two weeks.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

NBA Playoffs 2008

Is there any point me getting up early to watch this tomorrow morning, as I did with the first two games, or is it a shoe-in that the Lakers will win the first game on their court with no real response from the Celtics? I've enjoyed the two games so far (unusually for me with basketball, as usually it's just berdunk berdunk berdunk berdunk score, berdunk berdunk berdunk berdunk score, but the way the Lakers almost did a Liverpool v Milan in the final moments of the last one restored my faith that basketball can be exciting).

[Kurt Bafokeng]

NBA Playoffs 2008

I'm very pessimistic about this one. I suppose Boston have a better chance of winning the second or third match over there.

[Incandenza]

NBA Playoffs 2008

The refs are going to be in the tank for the Lakers tonight. I'm not saying that David Stern wants the Lakers to win it all, but I think that he wants a series, and not a Boston sweep. I still think Boston's going to go all out, however. But usually when a coach complains about officiating as vocally as Phil Jackson does, it gets results, and I think Boston will find that a lot of their physical play that wasn't called before--hip checks, shoulder-to-shoulder bumps--is going to get called tonight.

[jason voorhees]

NBA Playoffs 2008

I'll let you know reed.

Right off the bat, tons of hockey (1967 Maple Leafs, Rocket Ricard Canadiens, 1972 CCCP, etc.) 1984 Kirby Puckett Twins powder blue, but no Pittsburgh/Boston/DC/Dallass teams - and only the Phillies from Philly.

[jason voorhees]

NBA Playoffs 2008

It's worth watching the pregame intros and first quarter, rogin, to see the crowd heat. This crowd will be hot.

The Celtics will certainly be looking for the knockout.

[Incandenza]

NBA Playoffs 2008

jason voorhees wrote:

I'll let you know reed.

Right off the bat, tons of hockey (1967 Maple Leafs, Rocket Ricard Canadiens, 1972 CCCP, etc.) 1984 Kirby Puckett Twins powder blue, but no Pittsburgh/Boston/DC/Dallass teams - and only the Phillies from Philly.

And I take it no LA Teams...

[jason voorhees]

NBA Playoffs 2008

I did just sell my Magic Johnson, but only a Lyle Alzado Los Angeles Raiders.

[Incandenza]

NBA Playoffs 2008

jason voorhees wrote:

I did just sell my Magic Johnson

WHAT???