Hot Ice: NHL Thread

[ad hoc]

I'm still using the NHL thread for non NHL news. So sue me.
The cross border Erste Liga - mostly Hungary, some Romania, Vienna Capitals second team - is reaching the end of the season, and we're well into the playoffs now. So far much of the playoffs have been a procession - four 4-0 sweeps out of the 6 matchups so far. However, the Ujpest - Csiksereda game is proving very tight and very exciting. Ujpest are the second seeds (to our 4th), and so have home advantage. they won the first two games at home, then both home matches here went Csikszereda's way. Last night it was back in Ujpest, and what seems to have been a really tough match ended 3-2 to Csikszereda (all goals coming in the first period). They'll be back here tomorrow for game 6, which hopefully will go our way. Waiting in the final are Ferencvaros who have been far and away the best team this season, so it does feel a bit like playing for the runner up slot, but still

Goals from yesterday. I particularly liked the move for our second equaliser

[ad hoc]

Into the final! In the second period of overtime- half the players could barely stand, let alone skate

[BallochSonsFan]

A few playing in the Erste Liga who have UK experience.

Brett Switzer was decent enough for Dundee. We had Cody Carlson at the Clan. I really liked Jereme Tendler when he was with Hull - really decent scoring touch for them. Stefishen didnt last long in Edinburgh but his brother played there for a couple of seasons nearly a decade ago.

My Adler Mannheim became the first side to reach the DEL semi-finals. Beat Nuremberg Ice Tigers 7-4 to take the series 4-1.

[Snake Plissken]

Freesports is a hockey fest at the moment. The SHL playoffs continue with Lulea vs Vaxjo live tonight, tomorrow Coventry vs Belfast and Thursday is CSKA vs SKA in the KHL playoffs. Plus usuallly an NHL game on Saturday night.

[Ray de Galles]

Snake (or anyone else for that matter), do you know if a team is stepping up to the EIHL next season given Milton Keynes Lightning are dropping back to the second tier in the revived National League? Is an Edinburgh team coming in (perhaps with one other) or will they go with a ten team league?

[Ray de Galles]

Freesports is a hockey fest at the moment. The SHL playoffs continue with Lulea vs Vaxjo live tonight, tomorrow Coventry vs Belfast and Thursday is CSKA vs SKA in the KHL playoffs. Plus usuallly an NHL game on Saturday night.

There's still no HD version of the channel is there? Ice Hockey really doesn't suit low definition viewing.

[Snake Plissken]

Not on FreeView there isn't.

As for your question - I'm only following the EIHL via the live games on the telly so I don't know. Not surprised at MKL dropping out though - it always seemed like a step too far. Then again, the collapse of the BNL or whatever it was called probably made their move to the EIHL the only one possible.

[Ray de Galles]

Yeah, the revived second tier is going to be a far better fit for them. I'm surprised at how well Guildford have adapted to the top tier. I think someone must be pumping some money in but I'm a bit too much of a casual follower to know.

[BallochSonsFan]

Snake (or anyone else for that matter), do you know if a team is stepping up to the EIHL next season given Milton Keynes Lightning are dropping back to the second tier in the revived National League? Is an Edinburgh team coming in (perhaps with one other) or will they go with a ten team league?

Nobody looks capable of coming in to the EIHL. Guildford have done well. Their owner has deep pockets and owns property so can do some pretty good deals for housing players that the Flames sign. Biggest cost for hockey teams after ice hire and wages is housing the players and Guildford's owner can certainly help with that.

Hull were offered the chance to join last season as a replacement for Edinburgh but the owners turned it down. They felt that there wouldn't be enough time or resources to build an EIHL squad and that there were still doubts over their rink until the new Hull arena is built (5000 capacity). Wouldn't be surprised to see them step up in 3 or 4 years though. Remove them and there aren't any viable options.

The new league formed under the banner of the NIHL is the easy option for ex EPIHL sides and for MK Lightning. In fairness to them there's no fun in watching Hull put 10 past the Solway Sharks (and the Sharks were essentially the best of the rest after the 3 former EPL sides of Hull, Sheffield Steeldogs and Telford). It doesnt really bridge the development gap between what we had this season at NIHL 1 level and the EIHL. The new league will initially be 2 imports but in time I'd like to see that increase to at least 4. Tier 2 should really be a stepping stone for British players to move towards the EIHL.

Edinburgh won't be in the EIHL any time soon. Or even NIHL, although they do play in the NIHL cup. They're hammering teams in the SNL - they beat somebody 30-0 recently - and should really be playing at least NIHL 1 hockey but politics will always get in the way. David Hand is disliked amongst many in UK hockey and his brother Tony isnt always as popular as you'd imagine an icon of the sport in the UK would be.

Quarter final stage in the EIHL play-offs. It's a bit of a joke play-off tournament in as much as you only actually need to win 3 games. 2-legged qualifier followed by a semi final a week on Saturday and then a final on Sunday. We don't really have enough teams to have a proper play-off series format for our post season. Arena teams cite ice availability as a major issue. Arenas know when hockey season finishes in the UK and will typically book touring bands or other events as soon as the hockey season is over. They couldn't really live with the uncertainty of play-off hockey and most UK arenas aren't geared up to have a gig one night and a hockey game the next. I'll be at the Clan v Flames 2nd leg on Sunday but since neither team offers a webcast, non-travelling fans will be relying on twitter for game updates. It's another issue that should be easy for the league to sort but Neil Black is a particular opponent of webcasting and he owns 2 teams. Dundee and Fife don't stream Clan games to try to maximise income from the travelling Clan support. That kind of self-interest will always hold back attempts to increase the reach of the game or to make it more accessible for fans.

[Snake Plissken]

IIRC, in the 97-98 ISL season they did actually go to a best of 3 playoff format and unlimited overtime in the Final. And if you were designing a set of games that showed off the massive flaws in the format then you wouldn't have done better than what actually transpired.

After a six game two group stage the two top teams went to a best of 3 semi-final. Both ended 2-0 with the second leg in half empty arenas due to having to schedule the games for midweek. The losing teams (Sheffield and Manchester) then had to wait a week to play out a meaningless playoff for 3rd vs 4th. Then in the Final itself, it went through almost three entire overtime periods before I think Jeff Hoad scored after 116 minutes to win. Considering the finalists were Cardiff and Ayr and the game (in Manchester) didn't finish until 10.30pm on a Sunday night, it was little surprise that they never repeated the experiment.

They used to do a four team, six game qualifier in the old Heineken days with top two from each group meeting in the semis at Wembley on the Saturday and the final on the Sunday. However, I'm pretty sure the league regular season was several games shorter - looks like 36 compared with the ISL's 54 and EIHL 60.

[Ray de Galles]

Thanks for the info, BSF. Looks like we'll be at a leg each of the Flames v Clan quarter-final.

The Edinburgh you're referring to are Murrayfield Racers, yes? No sign of the Capitals coming back in any form? I'd love to see some SNL games one day, always amazed there are three ice hockey sides in Dundee alone.

[BallochSonsFan]

Yes.

The Racers were aiming for EIHL hockey but politics got in the way. The EIHL didn't want to deal with David Hand. The NIHL didnt really want them either given that it's run under the control of the English Ice Hockey Association and David Hand is/was head of the Scottish version. Ended up playing Scottish National League by default.

[Hot Pepsi]

What a shitshow. Edinburgh is a big city. You’d think the league would see the merit in having a team there.

[Ray de Galles]

I imagine Clan will go through easily tonight, BSF. The final score of 2-3 wasn't as bad for the Flames as it looked at 3 down going in to the final period but they only managed to claw those two goals back when Glasgow had a four minute penalty against them for a high stick.

Cardiff were 5-1 down at Sheffield but managed to pull it back to 5-4 and the second leg is on Freesports soon.

[Ray de Galles]

Bloody hell, the Flames somehow won 0-5 and go through 3-7. I can't believe that happened based on last night's game. Cardiff won 7-3, winning 11-8 on aggregate.

There appear to be special play-off jerseys for each team that only feature one sponsor, the uncluttered look makes them far more pleasing than the usual ones.

The final is on Freesports next Sunday afternoon.

[BallochSonsFan]

It would be easy to put it down to Clan running out of steam. We were a D man and 2 forwards down last night. We had another forward who made himself available despite being in no condition to play. That would be a little lazy though. Our form since early February has been poor even before Connolly got injured up in Fife in the final regular season game. I've always been impressed by the way Guildford skate and move the puck. Really well organised and highly skilled. If I remember the game sheet from Saturday then they were without their first choice goaltender too. 5-0 isnt a surprise. At 2-0 on the night, and 4-3 overall, they were in control and looked the likelier of the 2 to progress.

Another big job ahead for the Clan. This season was night and day different to last season but we need a similar leap forward. I reckon we need to find 6 new imports minimum. Also doubts over Pete Russell - family still live in Swindon and it's a big ask to be away from your family all season. I think we may need a new coach, particularly if Nottingham take a chance on him or if Dixon gets a bigger job and Guildford are looking at him.

Mannheim look home and hosed in the semis of the DEL play-offs. But will it be Munich or Augsburg in the final?

[ursus arctos]

Three games so far, all decided by one goal, two in overtime. Who knows?

What we do know is that die Adler will be the better rested team in the final.

[Ray de Galles]

Quarter final stage in the EIHL play-offs. It's a bit of a joke play-off tournament in as much as you only actually need to win 3 games. 2-legged qualifier followed by a semi final a week on Saturday and then a final on Sunday. We don't really have enough teams to have a proper play-off series format for our post season. Arena teams cite ice availability as a major issue. Arenas know when hockey season finishes in the UK and will typically book touring bands or other events as soon as the hockey season is over. They couldn't really live with the uncertainty of play-off hockey and most UK arenas aren't geared up to have a gig one night and a hockey game the next.

I've been thinking about this but, apart from the fact that a best of seven series is the North American tradition for this and other sports, do you really see a straight home and away play-off system as a problem? For me it's far more satisfying way of settling progress than the seemingly endless back and forth of the best of seven. As well as the practical problems you cite I'm not sure there would really be the appetite for it in the UK either. What other benefits would it bring apart from a sense of authenticity?

While I'm asking potentially dumb occasional ice hockey fan questions, what is the point of the conference system in the EIHL? I don't really take to the format in any sport in any country but the EIHL use a combined full league for all significant issues anyway, don't they? I presume the conference plays a bigger part in cup progress?

[ursus arctos]

North Americans also use best 2 of 3, best 3 of 5 and even "double elimination" in which teams play a round robin with those losing twice eliminated.

I am obviously much more used to that kind of format, but have always found the European use of aggregate goals/points to decide two game series in sports other than football to be bizarre (with basketball being particularly wacko). It works in football because scoring is so rare, but is less and less a reliable indicator of which team has actually performed better as the rate of scoring increases.

[Ray de Galles]

Really? I don't get that. Surely (to use the two examples above) if Guildford have lost 2-3 at home and won 0-5 away they're pretty clearly the better performing team. While Cardiff winning 7-3 after a 5-4 defeat away is tighter it's a fair indication of the superior side.

I'm interested in the other play-off formats you mention, where are they used?

[ursus arctos]

I don't think you can say that with certainty from the scores. The Guildford example seems quite clear cut, but what if two of their five goals in the win were empty netters? I'd also need to know more about the data on home advantage in the league to know if the fact that they won away is meaningful.

Double elimination is used a lot in non-professional baseball and softball tournaments, perhaps most notably in the College World Series (aka the NCAA Championship for baseball). 2 out of 3 and 3 out of 5 are very common at lower levels of other team sports, including basketball and ice hockey. For quite a while, the opening playoff series in the NBA were 3 out of 5 and the first proper round of the MLB playoffs still are. 2 out of 3 was also used during the early years of the NBA.

The "Timeline" section of this Wiki traces the history of different formats in the NBA, which may surprise you.

[Sporting]

the data on home advantage

This has always fascinated me in general. Has there been a thread here on this? For example, this year in the Spanish Liga there have been slightly fewer home wins than in recent seasons and one of the reasons put forward is the use of Var (helping to negate referees' natural home bias). Obviously there are many other factors involved, But maybe best saved for a new thread unless one already exists.

[ursus arctos]

You should start a thread in Sport.

I don't recall our having done this before.

[Sporting]

Done

[BallochSonsFan]

I've been thinking about this but, apart from the fact that a best of seven series is the North American tradition for this and other sports, do you really see a straight home and away play-off system as a problem? For me it's far more satisfying way of settling progress than the seemingly endless back and forth of the best of seven. As well as the practical problems you cite I'm not sure there would really be the appetite for it in the UK either. What other benefits would it bring apart from a sense of authenticity?

While I'm asking potentially dumb occasional ice hockey fan questions, what is the point of the conference system in the EIHL? I don't really take to the format in any sport in any country but the EIHL use a combined full league for all significant issues anyway, don't they? I presume the conference plays a bigger part in cup progress?

I see it as a problem for UK ice hockey. Unfortunately I don't see any easy solutions.

Playoff series work in the NHL, KHL, SHL, DEL and most big leagues. There are enough teams to make qualifying for post season playoffs a meaningful achievement. To win the Stanley Cup you need to win 16 games. In comparison, only 3 teams from this season missed out on the EIHL play-off quarter finals and the winner can take the title on the basis of 3 wins. May well happen that way this year as Cardiff lost their first leg against Sheffield but won the 2nd leg. They need to win the semi and then the final. If we had more teams and could have a genuine post season series of games then it would be great but right now we just don't have the numbers for that. There's also a major ask for arena teams to try to get ice time. Arenas will book acts for mid April onwards on the basis of there being a guarantee of no more hockey. UK arenas arent really set up to switch between hockey and a concert on successive nights and arenas will always chase revenue.

If we were to get rid of post season games from UK hockey then you run the risk of having dead rubber matches for the final 3 or 4 weekends of the season. That happens in football but there are usually European places to play for and the threat of relegation. In hockey dead rubber just isnt attractive to enough fans.

As for EIHL conferences, it's a topic that divides fans. It's always been seen as a sweetener for Fife and Dundee that they'd have more games against each other and against the other 2 Scottish sides as they were (before Edinburgh Capitals collapsed for good). The league also saw the option of more Nottingham v Sheffield games as being a major draw. Conferences could work but again it comes down to numbers. Fans don't like seeing the same teams again and again, particularly when we were in a conference with the Caps. You had all sorts of weird arguments justifying Belfast not being in with the Scottish teams (primarily seen as being an easier option for Belfast but at the cost of less attractive fixtures to sell to their fans) and the likes of Hull having to travel significant distances for "local" conference games. Longer term I think it could work but you'd need a better distribution of clubs. Minimum I'd want would be 2 conferences of 6 teams each. You could possibly go with 3 groups of 5 if the league ever grew to 15 teams but I don't want to see us going to really small conferences. I don't want to see the same side 4 times a season plus whatever away games I'm lucky enough to get to.