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    This hearing has been bonkers from the get go

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      Uh-oh!

      Meanwhile, a couple of interesting things of note:

      World Athletics are trying to ban "Neutral" Russian athletes from competing, which is something I feel they should have done from the outset: the Russians still have athletes who've come through the entire Russian system, who the Russian public can support. Perhaps they're not wearing Russian Federation shirts, but it did feel like the ban was a little half-hearted.

      And there's a big question about whether Nike Vaporfly shoes are "mechanical doping". If all the energy of your footfall is returned to you as forward momentum, it definitely seems like a mechanical advantage over someone running barefoot. But it also seems to open a massive can of worms about how much springyness should be permitted.

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        Chris Hayes' podcast has a great interview with Howard Bryant on the social issues connected to cheating generally (Hayes' first book included a discussion of doping):

        https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/msn...ing/e/66726805

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          Isn't EPO easily detectable now?

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            Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
            World Athletics are trying to ban "Neutral" Russian athletes from competing, which is something I feel they should have done from the outset: the Russians still have athletes who've come through the entire Russian system, who the Russian public can support. Perhaps they're not wearing Russian Federation shirts, but it did feel like the ban was a little half-hearted.
            Where else are they going to come through? Banning athletes who haven't been caught doing anything, purely on guilt by association, would be a pretty nasty move. Russia is not the only country looking dodgy and I feel that the ban as imposed already looks quite scapegoaty.

            Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
            Isn't EPO easily detectable now?
            I think micro-dosing can still be difficult to pick up if done well.

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              Originally posted by delicatemoth View Post

              Where else are they going to come through? Banning athletes who haven't been caught doing anything, purely on guilt by association, would be a pretty nasty move. Russia is not the only country looking dodgy and I feel that the ban as imposed already looks quite scapegoaty.
              It's desperately unfair on those who never cheated, I agree. But the trouble is that we know that there's been systemic doping across the entire Russian sporting structure, so it's literally impossible to trust that Russian athletes haven't been doped at some point, and we know that doping early in life gives benefits that often last over a sustained period. Also, the ban is meant to be punitive for the Russian federations, and if their athletes are still competing it seems to not be hitting the target fully.

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                It's funny. There is a complete culture that exists for folks that dope to set their records for themselves. Just don't try polute the clean lift data. Track is less clear but the weight-lifting doped community is weirdly strong and insular.

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                  Originally posted by caja-dglh View Post
                  the weight-lifting doped community is weirdly strong
                  Sorry dglh, but out of context this just made me laugh. I don't think it's that weird, considering...

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                    Is he saying that it wasn't just the eggs?

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                      There are two factions in the cheating weightlifting. One is fake weights for instagram. But then there is the side which set their own (crazy) records whilst being open about their doping. They can't do sanctioned events but do get a huge following and their own form of praise. I don't really get it, but it is very much *a thing*.

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                        The NFL and big time college football operate in much the same mindset.

                        I would bet that Fuentes had a considerable number of affluent "amateur" athletes as well. There is a cadre who take the view that it isn't qualitatively different from buying the latest set of magic golf clubs (see also the 50+ Italians who are caught with motors in the tubes of their bikes at village races).

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                          Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post

                          It's desperately unfair on those who never cheated, I agree. But the trouble is that we know that there's been systemic doping across the entire Russian sporting structure, so it's literally impossible to trust that Russian athletes haven't been doped at some point, and we know that doping early in life gives benefits that often last over a sustained period. Also, the ban is meant to be punitive for the Russian federations, and if their athletes are still competing it seems to not be hitting the target fully.
                          I'd suggest it's punitive in that they won't be able to lay claim to any wins or podiums achieved by any of the athletes, which is not insignificant imo. And that it's pretty hard to trust that any athletes haven't been doped at some point - try as I might, I can't forget that the Operacion Puerto blood bags destroyed by court order were taken at the height of Spanish sporting success in football and tennis, for instance. It doesn't stop me admiring the achievements of Nadal, Barcelona and the Spanish national team - or, for that matter, of caught dopers Valverde and Contador - but it's there in the back.

                          But I have to confess that ultimately I don't care that much. Part of the reason is contained in your observations on the Nike shoes. Rich athletic federations and sports clubs/teams have far more access to equipment and facilities that give them material advantages over the others (look at cycling TTTs, a wonderful discipline always fought over by the richest teams), and this is widely regarded as perfectly fair. Another part is that even with chemical advantages it still takes phenomenal talent, will and application to get to the top and stay there. Cycling fans tend to recognise this, even if they're not really conscious of it - everyone knows that Coppi and Anquetil didn't ride the Tour on water, but I've never heard anyone suggest that their titles be withdrawn. Even Pantani, a doper at the height of the Shame Era, usually gets a pass due to his magnificent style and tragic death. The issue with Armstrong, I think, was the systematic and ruthless deployment of vast resources to cheat and the way he went after anyone who questioned him. Of course, you could here draw a comparison with the Russian federation and I couldn't deny that.

                          To me, by far the worst thing about doping is the potential, and in some sad cases actual, catastrophic effects on athletes' health. I think that should be the overarching focus of anti-doping efforts, rather than cheating.

                          One further thing, which I know isn't an issue for most people, is that I cannot take WADA seriously while they continue to conflate performance enhancing and recreational drugs. Yes, I know Pantani also conflated the two!

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                            Unfortunately it tends to be countries that already have huge material advantages that also benefit most from doping. I wouldn't mind if it were Haiti or El Salvador giving themselves a chance to compete with the US, UK and Russia, but that's not the case. It's the global economics of Big Pharma transposed on to sport, essentially.

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                              I can't dispute anything DM says. I'm just saying that if WADA consider Russia to be exceptional (which, I agree, should not be the case), and want to ban Russians overall, then creating a loophole seems to be missing the target.

                              On the "amateur cheating" side of thing that Caja talks about, one of the weirdest phemona in recreational cycling is people cheating to get Strava KOMs - they'll find segments, and then drive or ride e-assist bikes to get themselves to the top of the leaderboard (but not so fast that it's a complete outlier, so it looks plausible). It's bizarre. There seems to be no value in it. It's not even like winning an amateur race.

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                                Then there's the Astros:

                                https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/16/s...s-resigns.html

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                                  Originally posted by caja-dglh View Post
                                  There are two factions in the cheating weightlifting. One is fake weights for instagram. But then there is the side which set their own (crazy) records whilst being open about their doping. They can't do sanctioned events but do get a huge following and their own form of praise. I don't really get it, but it is very much *a thing*.
                                  There is also a breakaway organisation called something like the Drug Free Weightlifting Federation. This may sound like an oxymoron, like Goalpost Free Football, but that reaction is essentially the motivation of the people who set it up. The sport is so corrupted by drugs that they want a separate space for those who don't dope to compete in.

                                  How they can maintain their claim is with a draconain approach to doping. Give a positive sample once, and it's an immediate lifetime ban or something like that. And, IIRC, by a positive sample they mean an adverse analytical finding rather than a finding of a doping violation, i.e. they don't care what explanation or science someone might put forward for why it came back positive, if your blood is green you are banned. Chris Froome is shuddering somewhere at me writing that...

                                  This approach means they are not actually WADA compliant, because they ban for longer than WADA would. Nor scientifically accurate - any test gives four results; true positive, true negative, false positive and false negative. Having the process of subsequent argument and explanation is actually necessary, because sometimes people's blood is genuinely green. But anyway.

                                  And of course being WADA non-compliant means they won't be recognised by the IOC. Basically they are apart from the mainstream international sporting community.

                                  It was this organisation that Bored's friend was (still is?) a World Record holder for.

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                                    Sorry, it's the Drug Free Powerlifting Association. The mainstream version of that sport also has it's doping issues...

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                                      The Sun ain't gonna shine anymore.
                                      China's three-time Olympic champion swimmer Sun Yang is banned from competing for eight years for missing a doping test in September 2018.

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                                        Any chance that he'll be stripped of past medals?

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                                          Some chance they will strip him of some - the CAS ruling said all his results, points and prize money should be annulled from the date that he had his entourage take a hammer to the blood vials, but it will take FINA to actually pursue that. This includes World Championship medals where he was claiming to be a 'winner' and the athlete refusing to share a podium with him was a loser. 'Complete fraud' might have been a better self-description.

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                                            The full decision is here, for anyone interested in reading:- https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/us...48_website.pdf

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                                              The 2021 Olympics are likely to have some astonishing performances, aren’t they?

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                                                Would that be mitigated by fewer training opportunities if gyms are closed?

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