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Pound-for-pound, dollar-for-dollar: Boxing

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    Thanks for sharing that, UA. Of course, the last line is interesting. I don't know what is a determinant factor for subscribing to HBO other than huge shows like Game of Thrones. I sub but basically all the movie channels are part of my subscription tier on my satellite. And I tend to watch a few movies a month + one or two different TV shows a year. If it was just me and the missus wasn't interested, I'd use other means to get those shows and not mess with it. Anyway, DAZN isn't enticing enough so I'll probably continue to be out of the loop with boxing.

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      Nicola Adams has to retire.

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        Originally posted by diggedy derek View Post
        A sick son meant I was was up for Canelo - Kovalev. My stream gave out at the start of the 11th round, to which point Kovalev had been methodically breaking Canelo down, and then I return to find Canelo had scored an explosive knock-out. Darn it, that would have been a great one for the old guys.
        That's not really how I saw the fight.
        Kovalev spent most of the fight pawing with the jab, mainly to keep Canelo off him rather than trying to hurt him or set him up for power punches. He basically employed the same tactics as the second Alvarez fight which is to keep scoring with the jab until his opponent ran out of rounds.
        Canelo was content to coming in with the high guard for the first six rounds and then step it up in the second half and wait for a sloppy mistake from Kovalev as he tires and then take him out.

        The surprise it that it took til the 11th round for Canelo to take him out. But if you re-watch the fight you can see Canello getting closer and closer and counter-punching Kovalev more and more with the left to the head and body as the fight progressed.

        This was the least surprising result for all pundits and if I was a betting man, I would have put money on a Canelo knockout.
        There are at least half a dozen sane reasons, Kovalev had no chance of winning.

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          I only saw the highlights, but that knockout was something else.

          It is difficult to underestimate just how big Canelo is with Latinos here. He is ubiquitous on Spanish language television and his appeal extends beyond those of Mexican heritage.

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            Originally posted by danielmak View Post
            Thanks for sharing that, UA. Of course, the last line is interesting. I don't know what is a determinant factor for subscribing to HBO other than huge shows like Game of Thrones. I sub but basically all the movie channels are part of my subscription tier on my satellite. And I tend to watch a few movies a month + one or two different TV shows a year. If it was just me and the missus wasn't interested, I'd use other means to get those shows and not mess with it. Anyway, DAZN isn't enticing enough so I'll probably continue to be out of the loop with boxing.
            I think it was the rise of PBC about 7 years ago which was the beginning of the end for HBO. Their model relies more on advertising and not PPV like HBO. They signed up a large number of the up and coming black and hispanic fighters, paid them more (only the PPV stars got good pay on HBO) and built up their profile by putting them on free TV and non-PPV subscription TV.

            Instead of responded, HBO concentrated on their big PPV stars like Paqiao and when they got old, they had nobody to fall back on as their younger stars were mainly Bob Arum fighters who they couldn't get good fights for as their main opponents were PBC fighters (Timothy Bradley, Lomachenko and Terrence Crawford are good examples).

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              It was also reflective of a change in their basic business model.

              They have transitioned from a network focused on "first run movies" and boxing to one focused on "blockbuster" serials (like Game of Thrones) that they produce and/or partially fund themselves. That is more expensive for them and has led them to focus on broadening their audience in a way that boxing cannot.

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                Can I make a request? I'm a little off boxing at the moment because there is even more bullshit around the sport than normal (the ongoing farce in the heavyweight division, fights in Saudi Arabia, Fury, youtubers, etc.) and not always keeping an eye the dedicated sites and channels.

                Consequently, I'm a little out of the loop on upcoming fights unless it's one I'm planning to attend in London (and even then I managed to forget about Prograis v Taylor/Selby v Burns which I was going to go to).

                If anyone spots any really promising genuine contests being televised (in the UK and non-PPV ideally) can they flag them up on here in advance?

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                  Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                  It was also reflective of a change in their basic business model.

                  They have transitioned from a network focused on "first run movies" and boxing to one focused on "blockbuster" serials (like Game of Thrones) that they produce and/or partially fund themselves. That is more expensive for them and has led them to focus on broadening their audience in a way that boxing cannot.
                  Yep, I agree with that. But the business model was prompted by them losing access to the top fighters which co-incided with their main partner Bob Arum losing access to the pick of the top fighters.
                  Post 2010 their only big fighter was Manny and they had few decent opponents hence why between 2011 and 2016 he fought Marquez twice and Bradley three times.

                  I think they just gave up bidding as post 2015 the biggest fighters were Joshua, Fury, Wilder and Alvarez and they could not guarantee they could sign them (and more importantly) credible opponents to exclusive contracts so bowed out.
                  Also, It's hard to have a PPV start who does not (or refuses) to speak English well (Golovkin, Alvarez, Lomachenko, etc).

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                    True, there were pressures from both sides.

                    Your last point is interesting. My anecdotal experience is that non-English speaking first generation immigrant communities are less profitable for PPV models because they are more likely to watch fights in larger groups and/or be comfortable resorting to questionable means of access.

                    I wonder if that is supported by the data.

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                      Follow up on Canelo's tactics. There has been talk of a fix which I don't agree with. This is the 11th round in it's entirety.
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAI87d8CBWQ

                      It's clear, Canelo came out with the express intention to knock out Kovalev.
                      He was catching him regularly with the left cross whenever he lazily threw out the jab and the was Kovalev was backing up clearly showed he was tired and unsteady on his feet.

                      I am not a big fan of punch stats, but the stats below tally with what I saw.
                      https://www.boxingscene.com/canelo-v...-stats--143964

                      Alvarez was ducking under the jab and catching him with either the right uppercut or left hook. This was a methodical breakdown from an experienced clinical fighter unlike the over-excited flurries by Yarde who burnt himself out.
                      It was the double overhead right with 59 seconds left that opened up Kovalev, after that, the outcome wasn't in doubt as Canelo like all great fighters, has excellent finishing instincts and Kovalev is not very good at running or tying up his opponent when he get's hurt. He just freezes and becomes a human punching bag.

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                        Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                        True, there were pressures from both sides.

                        Your last point is interesting. My anecdotal experience is that non-English speaking first generation immigrant communities are less profitable for PPV models because they are more likely to watch fights in larger groups and/or be comfortable resorting to questionable means of access.

                        I wonder if that is supported by the data.
                        Not sure about that Ursus, If this was true, Floyd Mayweather (who know much more about this thing than you or me) would not have spent the final decade of his boxing career mainly fighting Hispanic fighters.
                        I mean, If you really want to see someone fight, you would cough up the PPV money and not rely on a choppy illegal stream that can crap out at any time. That's the domain of the Casual fan or someone you are not that bothered with watching.

                        Hispanic Immigrants are the base of PPV sales (which is why Canelo and Mayweather before him) would always fight beginning of may and mid September to co-incide with Mexican Holidays.
                        However, the real PPV numbers are made up by casual fight fans who would tune in to watch personalities as much as marvel at good fighters or potentially good fights.

                        To be a PPV star, you need to be able to sell yourself as a personality, especially if you are not a heavyweight. There is a reason Adrian Broner despite losing to every top class opponent he has faced in the last 6 years still commands almost seven figures per fight.
                        If you cannot sell yourself as a personality to the casual fan, then the TV company can't make much money out of you as you will only appeal to your local market or the hardcore fan.
                        HBO ended up with a roster of non-english speaking Hispanics and Eastern Europeans (and Terrence Crawford) whilst PBC hoovered up all the black and English speaking hispanic fighters, gave them good media training (Including co-commentating on PBC fights).

                        Going back to this.
                        Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                        They have transitioned from a network focused on "first run movies" and boxing to one focused on "blockbuster" serials (like Game of Thrones) that they produce and/or partially fund themselves. That is more expensive for them and has led them to focus on broadening their audience in a way that boxing cannot.
                        HBO has always been a channel known (In the UK at least) for making highly profitable gritty and graphic TV series that attract a loyal and cult following that I am sure they have made a pretty penny syndicating globally to markets where they have no TV presence. I am sure, stuff like the Wire, Sopranos, Boardwalk Empire, Deadwood and Oz were highly profitable?

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                          Nice read TG, looking forward to digesting that later.

                          RdG, have you seen that Naoya Inoue vs Nonito Donaire is on Sky (I believe) early tomorrow afternoon – it's happening in Tokyo. Regarding watching fights, I find so many of them in full on Daily Motion shortly afterwards, that I watch often US fights early the next morning in the UK and don't miss much.

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                            I could be wrong as I am not a US resident so giving an opinion from afar. Like Ursus, I have no data to back up my opinion on demographics of who is prepared to pay for PPV vs illegal means.

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                              I think we may be focusing on different time periods.

                              When I was talking about HBO's original model, I was referencing the 70s and 80s, even I don't think the service was even available in the UK. The "new" model dates from the 90s (yes, I am old).

                              It is demonstrably true that the audience for boxing in this country is primarily Latino and has been for some time.

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                                Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                I think we may be focusing on different time periods.

                                When I was talking about HBO's original model, I was referencing the 70s and 80s, even I don't think the service was even available in the UK. The "new" model dates from the 90s (yes, I am old).

                                It is demonstrably true that the audience for boxing in this country is primarily Latino and has been for some time.
                                Fair enough, I only really became aware of HBO drama's in the late 90's as they seem to be much more edgier and would air late night on Channel 4

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                                  Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                  t is demonstrably true that the audience for boxing in this country is primarily Latino and has been for some time.
                                  The Hardcore fans, yes. But there is a massive number of fans from the black and white (especially the Irish and Italian) community who will show up for a boxer of their ethnicity.

                                  For real crossover appeal you need to be able to articulate your personality and sell you back story.
                                  For example, you don't have to be a big boxing fan to find a GGG fight exciting. But he was never a big PPV star due to his communication skills so he was useless for those 24/7 show's HBO use to drum up interest for their PPV.
                                  Compare and contrast to Mayweather, Connor, Fury, Wilder or even a Dillian Whyte/ Derek Chisora who you would tune in to fight if you knew nothing about boxing out of curiosity.

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                                    Here is the full fight with Sky Sports commentary from i beleive Enzo Macranelli who gives a good breakdown of both fighters tactics.
                                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmcG4W3LS-g&t=12s

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                                      TG, that talk of a fix should indeed be given short shrift. The way he crumpled was sickeningly real.

                                      It's been interesting seeing people's perspectives on the Canelo Kovolev fight. I found the punch stats perplexing – according to them, Canelo landed more, but Costello and Bunce seemed convinced Kovolev had landed more. On the one hand, you have BBC voices saying they thought Kovolev was ahead; on the other, Lee Wylie etc saying this was a tactical masterclass by Canelo. For some, this extends to Canelo virtually beckoning Kovelev on to tire him out.

                                      Both perspectives can be true, of course. As you say TG, Canelo was getting closer and closer and was determined to keep turning the screw, and it's clear looking back that Canelo was going to get at least a couple of chances to land a devastating combination. I do find the way Canelo was ahead on the cards perplexing though.


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                                        Originally posted by diggedy derek View Post
                                        TG, that talk of a fix should indeed be given short shrift. The way he crumpled was sickeningly real.
                                        Indeed, if you were taking a dive, you would probably go down to a bodyshot (of which there was plenty) or a glancing blow to the temple. It's hard to dispute a bodyshot, dropping your hands and allowing a boxer like Canelo to hit you with a right-handed haymaker that nearly knocked your head off your shoulders seems suicidal.

                                        Originally posted by diggedy derek View Post
                                        It's been interesting seeing people's perspectives on the Canelo Kovolev fight. I found the punch stats perplexing – according to them, Canelo landed more, but Costello and Bunce seemed convinced Kovolev had landed more.
                                        Those punch stats are accurate if you discount all the punches that hit Canelo on the gloves and shoulders. If you re-watch the fight, you will see Canello landed the most clean punches although Kovalev three alot of jabs.

                                        Originally posted by diggedy derek View Post
                                        On the one hand, you have BBC voices saying they thought Kovolev was ahead; on the other, Lee Wylie etc saying this was a tactical masterclass by Canelo. For some, this extends to Canelo virtually beckoning Kovelev on to tire him out.
                                        I think both perspectives are right. Kovalev tactic was to pepper Canelo with the jab and limit the opportunity to get countered with the left and win on points. It was clear after a couple of round he wasn't going to knock out Canelo who has an iron jaw. So he decided to keep out of range and win points with the jab.
                                        Canelo's job was to stalk Kovalev and force him to tire himself out be keeping him moving and throwing punches and then step on the gas and take him out later in the fight as he got sloppy.

                                        Kovalev was 4 minutes away from executing his game plan. Although it appears the judges had Canelo ahead, Canelo came out in the 10th much more aggressively (after taking the 8th and 9th rounds off) and started to catch Kovalev more cleanly.
                                        Originally posted by diggedy derek View Post
                                        . As you say TG, Canelo was getting closer and closer and was determined to keep turning the screw, and it's clear looking back that Canelo was going to get at least a couple of chances to land a devastating combination.
                                        And everyone knows that once Kovalev is in trouble, he has issues defending himself, and Canelo has proved himself a hard puncher and a devastating finisher.

                                        Originally posted by diggedy derek View Post
                                        I do find the way Canelo was ahead on the cards perplexing though.
                                        See the scorecards below:
                                        https://www.boxingscene.com/canelo-a...ecards--143961

                                        I could have given Canello rounds 4,5,6,7 where he was countering Kovalev with hooks to the head and body almost every time Kovalev attempted a combination. I also would have given Canello the 10th too. Round 8 and 9 were definitley Kovalev so if you were generous giving Canello ether round 2 or 3 you can see why he would be ahead. Personally, I would probably have it around 6-4 to Kovalev or a draw. Canelo's clearly threw more quality punches and was forcing Kovalev back from the 4th round, the only question is if you thought he was doing enough to win the rounds he was given.
                                        If this had gone to the scorecards, it would have been a controversial win for Canelo but not an outright robbery as the award of rounds is subjective.




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                                          UA: This has nothing to do with boxing, but as you know living in the US, the PPV market has shifted in many ways since the rise of satellite TV. Boxing has continued to use this model. International football had drifted away (the last major tournament that relied on PPV was Euro 2004, if I remember correctly, with 2-day delay on then Fox Sports World or maybe Fox Soccer Channel). But recently BeIN seems to be partnering with somebody to sell a variety of South American national team games to PPV (most notably Peru). I'd be shocked if this move is profitable. So there seems to be some kind of market for Latin American immigrants. How much of a market, I can't say and if that market translates to boxing, I can't say. I watched Canelo-GGG 1 on my phone via a Twitter stream and II via a dropping in and out IPTV feed and then just waited for the HBO replay to watch more closely. If DAZN is avoiding PPV then perhaps there will be a market for the app. So far they don't have much other content.

                                          Sorry, none of that has to do with this particular fight or others.

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                                            Originally posted by danielmak View Post
                                            UA: This has nothing to do with boxing, but as you know living in the US, the PPV market has shifted in many ways since the rise of satellite TV. Boxing has continued to use this model. International football had drifted away (the last major tournament that relied on PPV was Euro 2004, if I remember correctly, with 2-day delay on then Fox Sports World or maybe Fox Soccer Channel). But recently BeIN seems to be partnering with somebody to sell a variety of South American national team games to PPV (most notably Peru). I'd be shocked if this move is profitable. So there seems to be some kind of market for Latin American immigrants. How much of a market, I can't say and if that market translates to boxing, I can't say. I watched Canelo-GGG 1 on my phone via a Twitter stream and II via a dropping in and out IPTV feed and then just waited for the HBO replay to watch more closely. If DAZN is avoiding PPV then perhaps there will be a market for the app. So far they don't have much other content.

                                            Sorry, none of that has to do with this particular fight or others.
                                            Those are really good points DanielMak.
                                            They trialled PPV for Football for a couple of seasons in the UK around the millennium and it failed miserably. For a start, the kick off times (midday on a Sunday) were not ideal and most of the matches were mainly 3rd tier premier league games that nobody apart from the teams supporters were interested in watching (Derby County v Middlesboro). It didn't help that Pirating Sky and Cable TV was pretty easy at the time.
                                            I think only premium boxing fights are PPV in the UK and their prices are at a reasonably low price £15-£25 rather than the $50-$100 in the US.

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                                              I'm somewhat surprised that the prices are that much lower. I guess that they think they can make it up on volume.

                                              Those South American PPV matches always intrigued me. They tend to be rather obscure (a Peru-Ecuador World Cup qualifier, for instance) and rather expensive (USD 25 or more). They can't get many punters at that rate.

                                              There was a decent PPV market for cricket among the South Asian diaspora here about ten years ago, but that has evolved completely into premium subscription services.

                                              Mixed martial arts and professional wrestling also still have PPV events here.

                                              When "big" Italian clubs have been relegated to the third tier or below (and thus out of the normal subscription coverage), Sky Italia has shown their matches on a PPV basis for 8-10 euro a match (with a discount for the entire season). I understand that they did well with Napoli's season in Serie C, less so for Fiorentina and Genoa.

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                                                Inoue – Donaire was a sensational fight. The way Inoue floats around the ring, superhuman!

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                                                  Joshua comfortably beats Ruiz Jr in a fight that was, thankfully, scored accurately.

                                                  The lost weight, improved mobility and better attitude are a credit to AJ but, in reality, he's only back to where he was before the June fight. He needs to fight and beat the winner of Fury and Wilder, no pissing about with another Ruiz rematch.

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                                                    Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post
                                                    Joshua comfortably beats Ruiz Jr in a fight that was, thankfully, scored accurately.

                                                    The lost weight, improved mobility and better attitude are a credit to AJ but, in reality, he's only back to where he was before the June fight. He needs to fight and beat the winner of Fury and Wilder, no pissing about with another Ruiz rematch.
                                                    Perfectly put. AJ was well in charge tonight but bigger and potentially harder challenges lie ahead to really imprint himself on the great of UK fighters .

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