MLB 2022: Pitchers Hit the Bench

[Greenlander]

That Mariners - Yankees game I've just listened to was something else ending in a 1-0 walkoff after 13 innnings. There were no pitches over 95mph in the first nine innings and twice in extras the Mariners turned double plays to get themselves out of trouble. And the noise, well that was something too. For once the dog waking me up extra early wasn't so annoying.

'Holy Smokes', as the Seattle radio guy likes to say.

[danielmak]

There is an interesting part in the sixth episode where Jeter's defense is discussed. Brian Cashman states that he thinks the front office actually did Jeter a disservice. Because he was such a star, nobody wanted to talk with him about the analytic data that was starting to emerge at that time. Jeter says that once someone told him that the underlying metrics weren't kind that he went to work on what he could. Cashman confirms Jeter's claim. [FYI that Jeter basically is done with Cashman after the last contract negotiation when Cashman says to Jeter that Cashman would rather have Tulowiski or Hanley than Jeter so Cashman has no real reason to confirm Jeter's claim if it wasn't true.]

I think I said this above, but it is amusing that ESPN has made a documentary about a guy who was excellent at what he did but had no other personality traits beside wanting to win and being "clutch." He's no Jose Canseco or Nolan Ryan when it comes to personality. With that said, I don't know where he ranks retroactively with the defensive data. I'd be shocked if he wasn't top 5 in MLB up until his last few years. People say he was poor defensively and there is some of that in this thread. A team like the Yankees doesn't keep him in that position if he's costing the team. Christopher "Mad Dog" Russo says something similar about Jeff Kent during every HOF voting season. He says (to paraphrase) everyone says Kent was a defensive liability. If Kent was a defensive liability why did every team play him there? He might not be Joe Morgan, but no team (esp. pre-widescale shift) was playing a second rate defender at a prime defensive position. First base? Sure. But not short or second base.

With all of that said, I have no specific love for either player. Both were objectively game changers. I would take Jeter in his prime over almost every shortstop the Dodgers have had in my baseball following lifetime.

[ursus arctos]

That Mariners - Yankees game I've just listened to was something else ending in a 1-0 walkoff after 13 innnings. There were no pitches over 95mph in the first nine innings and twice in extras the Mariners turned double plays to get themselves out of trouble. And the noise, well that was something too. For once the dog waking me up extra early wasn't so annoying.

'Holy Smokes', as the Seattle radio guy likes to say.

https://twitter.com/tootblans/status/1557242019336142848?s=20&t=Cx4jwrYpqDbOrhk74mfLWw

[ursus arctos]

Jeter is fifth all time in both Baseball Reference and FanGraphs WAR as a Yankee

He is 61st all time overall at BR (which is easier to search historically), which strikes me as about right (between Frankie Frisch and Bobby Grich)

[danielmak]

I looked up Jeter on Baseball Reference. The section for each player that lists more advanced metrics shows that his DRS is in the negative almost every year except the year after he was told that he needed to work on his defense and (in theory) told how to work on his defense. Historical defensive metrics are admittedly difficult. Even metrics used to assess contemporary players are inconsistent, as UZR, DRS, and OOA rarely align. I think when we watch players closely we have an idea where they fall. I have never compared how I would rate Dodgers players with the various defensive ratings. I assume we'd align with Freddie, Mookie, and Bellinger (all three are stellar) but the rest would be tough since I'd rate most of the Dodgers as "average." Given that context, I did not see Jeter play much during that WS run of 1996-2001 because I didn't have cable or satellite until late 2000. The Yankees were on the radio in Tampa, which is where I lived during most of that run and I listened a lot. As much as I love baseball on the radio as an aesthetic and storytelling experience, it's not a good source for me to assess defensive quality. I need to see the games.

[Flynnie]

Jeter was pretty bad defensively for a long time. It’s impossible to tell to what extent positioning may have impacted his defensive metrics but he had definite flaws. He could throw and was alright going to his right (hence the legendary turning jump throws he made) but he was abysmal, I mean truly woeful, going to his left. Ground one up the middle and it was a guaranteed base hit for years.

And the Yankees absolutely tolerated this. One of the key reasons they continually gagged in the playoffs from 2001-2006 or so was they were, to use a technical term, fucking terrible up the middle defensively. Posada was a poor defensive catcher, not a great thrower and led the league in passed balls twice despite never catching a knuckleballer once. What framing metrics we have say he was pretty bad as well. Bernie Williams was even worse, noodle arm and his legs had completely gone by 2002 yet Torre kept putting him in center field.

All these guys, along with the rest of the team, could still really hit and their pitchers missed enough bats to be really successful in the regular season, but if you want a secret reason why they kept blowing playoff series to inferior teams this is as good an explanation as any.

[danielmak]

Judge at 45 home runs. 61 is a legit target with this many games left.

[danielmak]

Oh man, the footage surrounding this field of dreams game is so, so bad. Fox and MLB Network have guys dressed up like they've been teleported from the 1800s. The narration surrounding their little video packages is so sappy. I didn't see much of last year's game so don't know if the commentary was equally is sickening. I'm hoping that won't be the case once this game begins.

[ursus arctos]

And they started with it 75-90 minutes before first pitch.

[Flynnie]

I think last year’s game was a bigger success than they expected, especially with Tim Anderson hitting a walk off to win it for the Pale Hose, and it sounds like they’re overdoing it this year.

The computer generated Harry Caray is going to be vomit-inducing.

[ursus arctos]

Can we play all our games here?

[danielmak]

I will say that the mic'd up Votto/Votto interview was great. As Smoltz's question stated, Votto has played across a couple different unique approaches to the game.

[ursus arctos]

The hologram cursed us, which is only fair

[Hot Pepsi]

Oh man, the footage surrounding this field of dreams game is so, so bad. Fox and MLB Network have guys dressed up like they've been teleported from the 1800s. The narration surrounding their little video packages is so sappy. I didn't see much of last year's game so don't know if the commentary was equally is sickening. I'm hoping that won't be the case once this game begins.

Do you not understand the point of all this or the point of the Fox network?

[Gerontophile]

(I tried to explain my hatred for Houston)

Fuck Houston. And all who sail within a sludgy mile3 of it.

Cunts.

15 minutes of typing, and "cunts" is the correct description.

(So sorry. I have a ketchup keyboar.)

[Gerontophile]

This one is from the heart.

I've been to see 3 baseball, full on, MLB games, all with the Cincinnati Reds. I fucking love them. It;s like the relegation fodder I;ve never dealt with (excepting Queen's Park) My frined is a season ticket holder, and ok, we are sat 30 feet, to the right, behind home plate, but fuck me, the fucking noise: these losing twats are INTO it.That's good enough for me.

You know when you see the football stuff about the Liverpool players touching the "This is Anfield" sign? I walked into a shitty afternoon game, and I almost threw up with excitement, I was shaking so hard. My friend asked why, and I said this is my first ever game. Obviously, everyone concerned got fucked (8-3 Giants, in their case).

I've been twice since, and the excitement hasn't stopped.

Always a Yankee, always a Redstocking.*

*NOT BOSTON, I may have fucked up the terminology, and spelling.

[ursus arctos]

Two words



Half of that team (and many of its best players) was bought by Boston interests in the early 1870s, but it isn't accurate to say that the Cincinnati club "became" what would later be called the Braves (or Red Sox).

[Incandenza]

I know I can't be the first person to point it out, but MLB literally going two centuries into the past seems like a curious strategy for a sport that needs to get more young people interested.

[danielmak]

While I understand that the Brewers traded Hader during the season because his trade value is higher than trading him during the off-season, I think the Brewers could have been a sleeping giant during the playoffs with that pitching rotation. They have since gone into a tailspin and the front office inspired a lot of drama in the clubhouse with that trade. The most amusing part of this is that they felt like Williams was ready to be the closer. This is a guy that missed the playoffs two years ago because he was injured during a celebration and was out of the playoffs last year because he punched a wall. So, not mister reliable when the team needs him. He was the first one to speak out about the front office letting the team down by trading Hader and now has supposedly said he wants to be traded during the off-season.

[ursus arctos]

World Series-winning "closers" over the last decade

2021 - Will Smith
2020 - Kenley Jansen
2019 - Sean Doolittle
2018 - Craig Kimbrell
2017 - Brad Peacock
2016 - Aroldis Chapman
2015 - Wade Davis
2014 - Sergio Romo (though Bumgardner recorded the only save)
2013 - Koji Uehara
2012 - Sergio Romo

[Hot Pepsi]

I know I can't be the first person to point it out, but MLB literally going two centuries into the past seems like a curious strategy for a sport that needs to get more young people interested.

I don't know about that. I was into that when I was a kid. The only really passionate young baseball fan I know is my nephew, and he's also obsessed with 19th century history.


More to the point, I'm frustrated with the perennial hot take that [fill in the name of struggling sport] needs to be more like the NBA or the NFL. This comes up a lot with the NHL, especially.

That's a terrible strategy and I think any decent MBA-type consultant boffin could see that too.

It's the old self-help bumper sticker. Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken.*

Nothing else will ever be as good at being the NBA as the NBA or as good at being the NFL as the NFL. So trying to compete on their terms is just a recipe for failure.

MLB trying to be faster is like McDonald's trying to do pizza.

Every sport has its own strengths and weaknesses as an entertainment proposition. They need to lean into what they have that is unique instead of chasing what the kids happen to be interested in this week.


Baseball's main problem now isn't that it isn't more like the NBA, it's that it has lost so much of what made it appealing when it actually was more popular and didn't have so much trouble hooking kids. I could list a whole bunch of them, but we've already discussed this.

It certainly will have to settle for a smaller, but more loyal fan base. But then, every sport is going to have to settle for that, including, probably the NFL and NBA too. There are just too many options available now and young people are used to having all of those options.

Unfortunately, all of the major sports are run by reactionary owners, most of whom got rich in fields that didn't require a lot of creativity, and their commissioners are corporate lawyers.


*I hate to use the metaphor of punk because it's so cliche in marketing now, but I think it sort of applies. Bands that are doing something weird and different may struggle to get anyone to come to their gigs at first - or maybe ever - but they are far more likely to inspire a loyal following over the long run then the world's best Led Zeppelin cover band especially because, in the world of this tortured analogy, Led Zeppelin are still touring and recording.

[danielmak]

Although Urias closed out the WS winning game for the Dodgers in 2020.

BTW, I have regularly noted that Kimbrel will create playoff problems for the Dodgers but I also feel for the guy. When he faces lefties, he tends to throw strike one up and away. Then he follows with a brutal slider for a hitter that lands just inside the TV pitch box in the bottom left corner. It is an unittable pitch. But in the past week, every single one is called a ball. I know those boxes aren't perfect but I have to think robo ump would be calling those strikers. There is a big difference between 0-2 and 1-1 even if Kimbrel would likely follow with three balls to get the count to 3-2.

[ursus arctos]

https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1558225949686202374?t=Wzl9W5vKh24tNczXJwpP2w&s=19

[danielmak]

Shocking news. I'm sure we'll hear the same old story: I didn't know what I was doing, DR pharmacist game me the wrong thing. blahblahblah. There are hundreds of thousands of dollars invested by teams in medical teams. You need any kind of medication, you call the medical staff, they prescribe legal stuff per MLB's rules, and that's what you take. Players come back from this but we have not seen someone like him (rivaling for the face of the game) and at his age. A-Rod might be the closest and the marketing of him sopped fast.

[Incandenza]

Man what a dumbass