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Yu Love to See It: MLB 2021

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    Originally posted by Hot Pepsi View Post

    The base coaches have to stand away from the baseline. The runners stand on the base. The coaches are usually 10-40 years older too.
    True, but I still find it annoying anyway. It may not be confusing to those who watch a lot of baseball, but it will be to those who are new to the sport. Perhaps calling it a distraction or an irritation might be more accurate?

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      The Ortiz case was talked about a lot leading up to the vote. The best I can tell:

      1. Ortiz's test showed a substance.
      2. Nobody knows what the substance was. Could be a PED. Could be a substance used to fight a cold.
      3. The commissioner's office and the Players Association both say they treat those tests as null because the tests have been destoryed and there is no way to know what substances were showing up.
      4. That test was 2002 if I remember correctly. That means the sample was either from 2001 or 2002. Most people agree that Ortiz was good in the minors and *badly* misused by the Twins who wanted him to spray the ball to all fields. His career takes off in 2003 with the Red Sox and during a time when testing is in full force. That means, unlike someone like Sosa, the bulk of Ortiz's career, where he compiles the numbers that earned this vote, happens during a testing era.

      Now, I say all of that and I am not a Red Sox fan, he's a player I'm fine with (don't love him or hate him), and I think being a DH afforded him some opportunities to build up big numbers--he is not the kind of DH I like since I prefer universal DH but also like that position to be one where players can rotate and get a rest.

      If I was a voter, I would have voted for him unless there's evidence that is not getting to the public (per my #1-4 above).

      Bonds and Clemens leave me confused. These guys got paid, they earned their fame. The hall is an honor, not a right. They knew they cheated otherwise they wouldn't have been sneaky. At the same time, as I have posted before, if PEDs were a magic cure then why weren't more guys as good as these two? I assume most PED users were able to stay on the field longer but Bonds and Clemens were already on a HOF track. Finally, there was no testing. As UA notes, there were other enhancing drugs used in the past and those guys are in. The implementation of testing by MLB is probably (though, as I just posted, I'm still on the fence) the dividing line for me. Manny: no way. A-Rod: nope. Cruz when he retires: nope. Cano: nope. But guys before that who already showed to be top players, I probably would vote in. I think Sosa is the outlier. He wasn't much of a player, or certainly not HOF trajectory pre-steroid boom.
      Last edited by danielmak; 28-01-2022, 16:46.

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        Originally posted by Chris1963 View Post

        True, but I still find it annoying anyway. It may not be confusing to those who watch a lot of baseball, but it will be to those who are new to the sport. Perhaps calling it a distraction or an irritation might be more accurate?
        I would suggest that the broader issue is that it is quite bizarre that non-playing managers and coaches wear uniforms identical to those of the players, which is not true of any other sport I can think of and really doesn't make much sense.

        It also wasn't always the case, as Mr. Mack would like to make clear.

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          Just for clarity, I don't object to Ortiz being elected on the basis of his numbers or his career. It's the double standard that there was something iffy but he gets voted in and Bonds and Clemens are kept out because they have an iffy whiff about them.

          I mean I don't really care. But Tony Gwynn thought Bonds should be in and I'd take his opinion over some sports journos.

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            Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post

            I would suggest that the broader issue is that it is quite bizarre that non-playing managers and coaches wear uniforms identical to those of the players, which is not true of any other sport I can think of and really doesn't make much sense.

            It also wasn't always the case, as Mr. Mack would like to make clear.

            It is an odd tradition.

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              As a kid I remember reading a story of the 1914 Miracle Braves and their manager George Stallings. Looks fairly comfortable in the suit, sitting next to Johnny Evers.

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                Anyone watching the Caribbean Series? Just turned in and Colombia are thrashing Venezuela 5-0.

                Judging by the sparse crowd and high proportion of Colombians of those in attendance, I'm guessing tickets are for each game rather than each day.

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                  I think there may be an option, with an all day ticket costing less than three singles.

                  There were also some guys in Mexico jerseys that I noticed.

                  The evening game doesn't start for 90 minutes, so there is enough time to clear the ground.

                  I had meant to look in on the game that started at 9am, but failed to do so. I can't imagine that they get any kind of crowd for that.

                  Was also notable that the Colombian champions had "Liga da Colombia" jerseys while the Navagantes wore their regular uniforms.

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                    The father of one of my wife's former co-workers came up with this stat (or that's what I was told). I can't say that I understand what's going on when the writer starts digging too deep into statistical correlations. That's what I get for doing what I could to get a C grade in stats way back in the day.

                    https://nolimitjumper.com/2021/07/16...YzlGiNShmhvZCo

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                      Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                      There were also some guys in Mexico jerseys that I noticed.
                      yes, just after I posted, they started to show clusters of Mexico shirts, with Charros shirts amongst them.

                      I'm at the footy tonight, so no idea how the evening game is going. Refs just blown for h/t so will check.

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                        1-1 in the third

                        As is typical for evening matches involving the home side, the stands are quite full (maybe ten times the attendance of the earlier game)

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                          Just got home and Dom Rep have just made it 2-2 in 7th. Should be a good finale.

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                            Wow, fantastic end to Panama v Colombia. Panama too the lead in the 9th, going 5-4 up. Colombia then got two back in the final innings

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                              Charros use pitching and defense to record their first win while giving Caimanes their first defeat

                              1-0 the final

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                                I have a feeling we are in for a wait before the 2022 thread. MLB owners proposed using a federal mediator and the players association rejected that. We're about 2 weeks out from what should be the start of spring training. Of course, spring training is too long, but I'll be curious how both sides decide to cut when they can get the deal together: shrink spring training and/or push back the start of the season. I'd like to see a return to 154 games either way but that's not happening.

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                                  A friend of mine is certain there won't be any games played this year, and has put money on it.

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                                    Baseball is a sport run by and played by people who do not like change. The NBA is constantly tinkering with rules, runs on short player contracts, and stands by players when they make choices not to play because of social protest.

                                    I think the arrival of what would be spring training will really get the two sides moving.

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                                      Jeter has left the Marlins (both as CEO and sold?? his ownership percentage) over philosophical differences. I assume this had to do with (A) the current labor negotiations running counter to his goals as a former player and now an owner and/or (B) he wants to win and the Marlins want to keep receiving luxury tax dollars while doing nothing.

                                      There are some nutty ideas being proposed. The latest is a ghost win in the playoffs for the non-wild card teams modeled after the Japanese league. Getting a win for doing nothing is not for me. This is the first time I have heard anything about on-field stuff and even that idea is loosely related to on-field. I am going to cancel my MLB subscription and wait to see if there are any on-field changes that meet what I would like to see. If the game itself is going to remain 3+ hours long, I'll just rely on MLB network whiparound stuff when I can watch.

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                                        It appears that the other owners have bought his shares, which were never as numerous as some of the coverage made one think.

                                        It looks certain that regular season games will be lost now.

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                                          At least Bobby Bonilla still gets paid.

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                                            Originally posted by caja-dglh View Post
                                            At least Bobby Bonilla still gets paid.
                                            There was a fascinating story on MLB Network a couple weeks back that I meant to post. Bonilla wasn't the first to accept this kind of deal and isn't the only player the Mets are still paying for that time. I forgot the others. The one that stunned me was Rollie Fingers (if I remember correctly). He was paid something like $4million but had deferrals built into the deal with interest added. The Brewers after everything was said and done paid him $40million on a deal that would have been closer to $4million more at that time. I can't find the source for the story to show exact figures but there were about 6 or 7 players discussed in the story.

                                            @UA: Joel Sherman speculated that the deadline was a harder deadline for big market clubs who tend to do well during the first month but most clubs, he said, actually lose money during the first month because the weather is bad and schools are still in session. Attendances are lower than what is needed to recoup the cost of running stadium operations. He claimed that these smaller teams were less concerned about losing days. Still, they also have TV contracts that are profitable and lost games might lead to less pay from the TV networks.

                                            I find the economic issues mildly interesting just because I'm generally curious about what makes the game run. But as I posted earlier, at the end of the day, it's the on-field stuff that matters to me most in terms of being a fan and watching the game.

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                                              These decades deferred payments at absurd interest rates are wonderful. A classic case of a GM making things someone else's problem.

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                                                Manfred cancels the first two series of the regular season

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                                                  I think losing half the season is probably best-case right now, the owners seem dead-set on maintaining the CBT thresholds, and I think all the talk about onfield changes was a smokescreen to try and draw attention from what I can only term bad-faith negotiations on their part.

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                                                    Originally posted by scratchmonkey View Post
                                                    I think losing half the season is probably best-case right now, the owners seem dead-set on maintaining the CBT thresholds, and I think all the talk about onfield changes was a smokescreen to try and draw attention from what I can only term bad-faith negotiations on their part.
                                                    It won't go that long.

                                                    Setting aside the paying young players, which absolutely needs to happen given the shifts in the roster construction, I have mixed feelings about some of the player's arguments.

                                                    They want higher thresholds to get players paid. That's understandable. The problem is that the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, and Giants would blow away other teams if the tax threshold is too high. The goal of re-setting the tax has kept those teams in check to some degree, which (in theory) makes the league more competitive. The Yankees won most years between 1996 and 2000 because they spent a lot of money. The Rays, who are a wonderful story, would not be where they are if the Yankees and Red Sox could spend now what they spent then. The Rays can compete because the Yankees and Red Sox have to supplement Derek Cole with Urshela, Chris Sale with Verdugo.

                                                    The players are worried about tanking teams. I get it. I think it's ridiculous as well. At the same time, if the Pirates spend more money on average 34 year old players, will the Pirates be much better? Maybe they win 5 more games but are nowhere near the Brewers or Cardinals this season. They will spend more money but still have the same amount of fans show up. A losing team is only going to draw die hards and folks who want to go to a game or two a season for entertainment purposes. So, the Pirates spend more, still finish in last place, block the path of younger players (who will be paid more which is good), and the 34 year olds won't positively impact their TV or radio deals. The team will be no better but have spent more money.

                                                    For me, there needs to be some moves that prevent long-term tanking like the Astros did, the O's are doing. I'd rather see some "re-imagining" as DePoto called the Mariners moves. The reality is that the Mariners haven't made the playoffs but other than a couple years most of that is down to the competition and trader Jerry not being settled. They didn't lose because they were tanking. The White Sox were similar -- 2 to 3 years they were down and then started revving up again. That's much more acceptable. But I can't see how you make all 30 teams competitive without both a cap and a floor. And I don't see why a team would want to pay large salaries to a guy like Todd Frazier, who seems like a great guy but has not been a top player for a decade.

                                                    The owners are mostly fools, but if I was an owner and had a team that was down, I would want to keep my payroll lean until I was ready to win. It's just good business and the entertainment value is no worse than watching older players nobody wants to sign who are playing only because a team shouldn't tank.

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