Originally posted by Hot Pepsi
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Yu Love to See It: MLB 2021
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- Mar 2008
- 7492
- Off the purple line
- I'm slutty: Roma (on haitus until Jose is fired), Liverpool, and Dortmund
- Del Taco
The Ortiz case was talked about a lot leading up to the vote. The best I can tell:
1. Ortiz's test showed a substance.
2. Nobody knows what the substance was. Could be a PED. Could be a substance used to fight a cold.
3. The commissioner's office and the Players Association both say they treat those tests as null because the tests have been destoryed and there is no way to know what substances were showing up.
4. That test was 2002 if I remember correctly. That means the sample was either from 2001 or 2002. Most people agree that Ortiz was good in the minors and *badly* misused by the Twins who wanted him to spray the ball to all fields. His career takes off in 2003 with the Red Sox and during a time when testing is in full force. That means, unlike someone like Sosa, the bulk of Ortiz's career, where he compiles the numbers that earned this vote, happens during a testing era.
Now, I say all of that and I am not a Red Sox fan, he's a player I'm fine with (don't love him or hate him), and I think being a DH afforded him some opportunities to build up big numbers--he is not the kind of DH I like since I prefer universal DH but also like that position to be one where players can rotate and get a rest.
If I was a voter, I would have voted for him unless there's evidence that is not getting to the public (per my #1-4 above).
Bonds and Clemens leave me confused. These guys got paid, they earned their fame. The hall is an honor, not a right. They knew they cheated otherwise they wouldn't have been sneaky. At the same time, as I have posted before, if PEDs were a magic cure then why weren't more guys as good as these two? I assume most PED users were able to stay on the field longer but Bonds and Clemens were already on a HOF track. Finally, there was no testing. As UA notes, there were other enhancing drugs used in the past and those guys are in. The implementation of testing by MLB is probably (though, as I just posted, I'm still on the fence) the dividing line for me. Manny: no way. A-Rod: nope. Cruz when he retires: nope. Cano: nope. But guys before that who already showed to be top players, I probably would vote in. I think Sosa is the outlier. He wasn't much of a player, or certainly not HOF trajectory pre-steroid boom.Last edited by danielmak; 28-01-2022, 16:46.
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Originally posted by Chris1963 View Post
True, but I still find it annoying anyway. It may not be confusing to those who watch a lot of baseball, but it will be to those who are new to the sport. Perhaps calling it a distraction or an irritation might be more accurate?
It also wasn't always the case, as Mr. Mack would like to make clear.
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Just for clarity, I don't object to Ortiz being elected on the basis of his numbers or his career. It's the double standard that there was something iffy but he gets voted in and Bonds and Clemens are kept out because they have an iffy whiff about them.
I mean I don't really care. But Tony Gwynn thought Bonds should be in and I'd take his opinion over some sports journos.
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Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
I would suggest that the broader issue is that it is quite bizarre that non-playing managers and coaches wear uniforms identical to those of the players, which is not true of any other sport I can think of and really doesn't make much sense.
It also wasn't always the case, as Mr. Mack would like to make clear.
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I think there may be an option, with an all day ticket costing less than three singles.
There were also some guys in Mexico jerseys that I noticed.
The evening game doesn't start for 90 minutes, so there is enough time to clear the ground.
I had meant to look in on the game that started at 9am, but failed to do so. I can't imagine that they get any kind of crowd for that.
Was also notable that the Colombian champions had "Liga da Colombia" jerseys while the Navagantes wore their regular uniforms.
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- Mar 2008
- 7492
- Off the purple line
- I'm slutty: Roma (on haitus until Jose is fired), Liverpool, and Dortmund
- Del Taco
The father of one of my wife's former co-workers came up with this stat (or that's what I was told). I can't say that I understand what's going on when the writer starts digging too deep into statistical correlations. That's what I get for doing what I could to get a C grade in stats way back in the day.
https://nolimitjumper.com/2021/07/16...YzlGiNShmhvZCo
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Originally posted by ursus arctos View PostThere were also some guys in Mexico jerseys that I noticed.
I'm at the footy tonight, so no idea how the evening game is going. Refs just blown for h/t so will check.
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- Mar 2008
- 7492
- Off the purple line
- I'm slutty: Roma (on haitus until Jose is fired), Liverpool, and Dortmund
- Del Taco
I have a feeling we are in for a wait before the 2022 thread. MLB owners proposed using a federal mediator and the players association rejected that. We're about 2 weeks out from what should be the start of spring training. Of course, spring training is too long, but I'll be curious how both sides decide to cut when they can get the deal together: shrink spring training and/or push back the start of the season. I'd like to see a return to 154 games either way but that's not happening.
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- Mar 2008
- 7492
- Off the purple line
- I'm slutty: Roma (on haitus until Jose is fired), Liverpool, and Dortmund
- Del Taco
Baseball is a sport run by and played by people who do not like change. The NBA is constantly tinkering with rules, runs on short player contracts, and stands by players when they make choices not to play because of social protest.
I think the arrival of what would be spring training will really get the two sides moving.
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- Mar 2008
- 7492
- Off the purple line
- I'm slutty: Roma (on haitus until Jose is fired), Liverpool, and Dortmund
- Del Taco
Jeter has left the Marlins (both as CEO and sold?? his ownership percentage) over philosophical differences. I assume this had to do with (A) the current labor negotiations running counter to his goals as a former player and now an owner and/or (B) he wants to win and the Marlins want to keep receiving luxury tax dollars while doing nothing.
There are some nutty ideas being proposed. The latest is a ghost win in the playoffs for the non-wild card teams modeled after the Japanese league. Getting a win for doing nothing is not for me. This is the first time I have heard anything about on-field stuff and even that idea is loosely related to on-field. I am going to cancel my MLB subscription and wait to see if there are any on-field changes that meet what I would like to see. If the game itself is going to remain 3+ hours long, I'll just rely on MLB network whiparound stuff when I can watch.
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- Mar 2008
- 7492
- Off the purple line
- I'm slutty: Roma (on haitus until Jose is fired), Liverpool, and Dortmund
- Del Taco
Originally posted by caja-dglh View PostAt least Bobby Bonilla still gets paid.
@UA: Joel Sherman speculated that the deadline was a harder deadline for big market clubs who tend to do well during the first month but most clubs, he said, actually lose money during the first month because the weather is bad and schools are still in session. Attendances are lower than what is needed to recoup the cost of running stadium operations. He claimed that these smaller teams were less concerned about losing days. Still, they also have TV contracts that are profitable and lost games might lead to less pay from the TV networks.
I find the economic issues mildly interesting just because I'm generally curious about what makes the game run. But as I posted earlier, at the end of the day, it's the on-field stuff that matters to me most in terms of being a fan and watching the game.
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I think losing half the season is probably best-case right now, the owners seem dead-set on maintaining the CBT thresholds, and I think all the talk about onfield changes was a smokescreen to try and draw attention from what I can only term bad-faith negotiations on their part.
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- Mar 2008
- 7492
- Off the purple line
- I'm slutty: Roma (on haitus until Jose is fired), Liverpool, and Dortmund
- Del Taco
Originally posted by scratchmonkey View PostI think losing half the season is probably best-case right now, the owners seem dead-set on maintaining the CBT thresholds, and I think all the talk about onfield changes was a smokescreen to try and draw attention from what I can only term bad-faith negotiations on their part.
Setting aside the paying young players, which absolutely needs to happen given the shifts in the roster construction, I have mixed feelings about some of the player's arguments.
They want higher thresholds to get players paid. That's understandable. The problem is that the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, and Giants would blow away other teams if the tax threshold is too high. The goal of re-setting the tax has kept those teams in check to some degree, which (in theory) makes the league more competitive. The Yankees won most years between 1996 and 2000 because they spent a lot of money. The Rays, who are a wonderful story, would not be where they are if the Yankees and Red Sox could spend now what they spent then. The Rays can compete because the Yankees and Red Sox have to supplement Derek Cole with Urshela, Chris Sale with Verdugo.
The players are worried about tanking teams. I get it. I think it's ridiculous as well. At the same time, if the Pirates spend more money on average 34 year old players, will the Pirates be much better? Maybe they win 5 more games but are nowhere near the Brewers or Cardinals this season. They will spend more money but still have the same amount of fans show up. A losing team is only going to draw die hards and folks who want to go to a game or two a season for entertainment purposes. So, the Pirates spend more, still finish in last place, block the path of younger players (who will be paid more which is good), and the 34 year olds won't positively impact their TV or radio deals. The team will be no better but have spent more money.
For me, there needs to be some moves that prevent long-term tanking like the Astros did, the O's are doing. I'd rather see some "re-imagining" as DePoto called the Mariners moves. The reality is that the Mariners haven't made the playoffs but other than a couple years most of that is down to the competition and trader Jerry not being settled. They didn't lose because they were tanking. The White Sox were similar -- 2 to 3 years they were down and then started revving up again. That's much more acceptable. But I can't see how you make all 30 teams competitive without both a cap and a floor. And I don't see why a team would want to pay large salaries to a guy like Todd Frazier, who seems like a great guy but has not been a top player for a decade.
The owners are mostly fools, but if I was an owner and had a team that was down, I would want to keep my payroll lean until I was ready to win. It's just good business and the entertainment value is no worse than watching older players nobody wants to sign who are playing only because a team shouldn't tank.
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