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    Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
    I would bet a large sum that you will be the last man in Britain who cares (or even thinks) about that award.

    You no longer have that many rivals to see off.
    I share Rogin's interest in the award but in the spirit that it's an anachronism like the Queen's Speech and Black Rod. I'd be very surprised if Stokes has thought about the award.

    2-2 is flattering to England but also a warning to Australia that they are still not quite good enough yet to be challenging for No. 1: batting is awful bar two players; the fielding errors cost them the series win; Paine seems to be a good manager of players but makes basic errors with the toss and reviews. Langer clearly was unhappy with the loss of intensity in this Test and the Headingley fuck up.

    I suspect England will lose in NZ and South Africa and their crisis will deepen, unless the new coach is really tough.
    Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 15-09-2019, 18:10.

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      I don't suppose there are many of you here who remember when Underwood did his magic:

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        Love those field placings

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          First Ashes to finish drawn since June 1972 so the first one to be drawn in my lifetime. Surprising to learn that it’s not drawn more often.

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            Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post

            I share Rogin's interest in the award but in the spirit that it's an anachronism like the Queen's Speech and Black Rod. I'd be very surprised if Stokes has thought about the award.

            2-2 is flattering to England but also a warning to Australia that they are still not quite good enough yet to be challenging for No. 1: batting is awful bar two players; the fielding errors cost them the series win; Paine seems to be a good manager of players but makes basic errors with the toss and reviews. Langer clearly was unhappy with the loss of intensity in this Test and the Headingley fuck up.

            I suspect England will lose in NZ and South Africa and their crisis will deepen, unless the new coach is really tough.
            See, I'm weirdly optimistic now. We knew before the Ashes that England are a team in transition but I reckon we've finished the series a stronger team than we started it.

            We've tried the Roy experiment so can leave that alone now - the openers we've landed on are coming good and will get better with experience.

            Root has finally accepted the golden rule: best batter at three, and that's you whether you like it or not.

            We can manage without Anderson and we can probably cope without Broad too. Archer, Woakes, Curran, Overton - that's the pace pack for the foreseeable with Stokes chipping in if required/able.

            Leach looks the business and adds resilience to the tail.

            The problem is 4,5,6,7. Who plays and where. Stokes is obviously somewhere in there but what about the other three? Does Foakes come in to free Bairstow of the gloves?

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              While I thought Satchmo saying England were in "crisis" was a massive exaggeration but I think you've gone too far the other way.

              Joe Denly is 33 so can hardly be described as an opener who is "coming good and will get better with experience". He's a stopgap, a very useful one, but not a long term answer.

              Root isn't settled at three at all and won't be batting there very much more I'd imagine, there will be more experimentation in that role.

              I'm amazed you think you can "probably cope without Broad" when he has had one of the, maybe the, best series of his career. Woakes hasn't been trusted very much at all this series and Overton was turfed out after one test. Getting Archer was a massive stroke of luck but you're going to be relying on him heavily, though I agree Curran deserves a proper run in your side.

              If "the problem is 4,5,6,7" then that's a pretty major one as it's the engine room of your batting. You need new players or for the ones who are there to find form incredibly quickly.

              I think England are in a decent place for a side that hasn't had a plan for test cricket for the last 3/4 years with a few players they can build a side around but the new coach has an awful lot of work to do.


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                What Satchmo said, plus an over reliance on foreign players.

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                  England used 2 players who moved here as adults (Roy and Archer). Curran and Stokes went to school in England (and Labuschagne and Khawaja in Australia)

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                    Roy was 10 when his family moved to the UK.

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                      Thanks Etienne, my mistake. I think I may have confused him with another player- Jennings or Malan perhaps?

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                        Yeah, I think Malan was about 18 and Jennings 20 when they moved over.

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                          Malan was born in England though.

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                            Yeah, and Jennings mum was English. These things are rarely black and white. I have much more of an issue with players like Abbott and Olivier abandoning international careers for Kolpak contracts. International cricketers should be paid enough that it's not financially better to play county cricket, and richer nations should spread out more money to the poorer ones if their boards can't afford to make it so.

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                              Ooh. The series result is dreadful, in that it papers over massive cracks for both teams. Burns acquitted himself well and Stokes was, well, Stokes. But the batting shows Bayliss's preference for white ball cricket - we need batsmen who know where off stump is and the need for soft hands. As mentioned above, Denly is 33 and not the answer for much longer. Bowling - Broad was awesome, and Archer is a genuine threat. But apart from that, the cupboard is looking a little bare. Woakes and Overton are not going to pull up trees for you. Just how long can Broad continue in this vein? And who is going to replace him? I'm not yet convinced that Leach is the answer to our spinning issue, either. Yeah - I'm a tough audience....

                              Root's a lucky captain - he got very lucky with the Headingley win, Paine's abysmal reviewing and his (Paine's) decison to bowl first at the Oval. He'll probably keep his job for a while now.

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                                Originally posted by Etienne View Post
                                Yeah, and Jennings mum was English. These things are rarely black and white. I have much more of an issue with players like Abbott and Olivier abandoning international careers for Kolpak contracts. International cricketers should be paid enough that it's not financially better to play county cricket, and richer nations should spread out more money to the poorer ones if their boards can't afford to make it so.
                                Not going to happen though if the likes of England (& Wales) keep poaching lesser teams best players. Especially when they have hundreds of home-grown ones of their own to choose from.

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                                  Other way round surely. If the SACB and the WICB had substantially more money, then there would be much less financial incentive for some of their young players to decide that playing in/for England would be better for them. Of course other reasons might still persuade them.

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                                    Originally posted by Etienne View Post
                                    Yeah, and Jennings mum was English. These things are rarely black and white. I have much more of an issue with players like Abbott and Olivier abandoning international careers for Kolpak contracts. International cricketers should be paid enough that it's not financially better to play county cricket, and richer nations should spread out more money to the poorer ones if their boards can't afford to make it so
                                    It's clear cut in the sense that Archer, Jennings and Malan are 'ringers' by moving as adults. I'm not blaming them for moving, nor querying whether they meet the eligibility criteria. I'd just prefer England didn't pick them.
                                    Last edited by Duncan Gardner; 16-09-2019, 11:17.

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                                      Yeah right. They cynically change the criteria and then don't select these foreigners. How does that work?

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                                        The criteria change was to follow an ICC change. But I agree, if the players become eligible then England will chose them. Better to create a situation where elite cricketers in test playing nations can make their livelihood there without it being better economically to come to England.

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                                          Fair last point. The ICC should be ashamed then.

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                                            Originally posted by George C. View Post
                                            Yeah right. They cynically change the criteria and then don't select these foreigners. How does that work?
                                            Spare us the exaggerated outrage. I don't agree with the criteria, merely pointed out that I accept that all those mentioned meet them.

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                                              Thought you supported Ireland?

                                              Aren't you peeved at Morgan cynically changing teams?

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                                                Not to the extent that I'd be thrown out of a ground for it

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                                                  ??

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                                                    Originally posted by Etienne View Post
                                                    Other way round surely. If the SACB and the WICB had substantially more money, then there would be much less financial incentive for some of their young players to decide that playing in/for England would be better for them.
                                                    A case in point ;

                                                    Archer, key to the World Cup win and so electric in his first four Tests, is down for top-tier terms in both red- and white-ball cricket.

                                                    The 24-year-old, who took 22 wickets in the 2-2 Ashes draw and whipped up breathtaking 96mph speeds, will be among a select group whose combined annual England earnings are expected to top £1m as the sport’s new five-year £1.1bn TV deal kicks in.


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