NBA 2019/20: Return of the Big 3?

[caja-dglh]

caja-dglh wait, where did you move to?

Chicago.

[Incandenza]

caja-dglh wait, where did you move to?

[caja-dglh]

IU, of course, is now a football school

Yes! Unfortunately, nobody told anyone else about this development outside of Bloomington.

[ursus arctos]

The draft demonstrated to me yet again that I know even less about basketball below the NBA than I do about the league (which is not much)

IU, of course, is now a football school

[caja-dglh]

This is very true

These catastrophic injuries are just awful

dglh, are you under any familial pressure to follow the Pacers now that you are in the general vicinity?

I have always been a Pacers fan, as much as basketball has been a thing for me (it hasn't). But Mrs dglh is IU, so I get the two-fer as the Pacers best players are often Hoosiers (which is likely a middling team strategy of selling tickets). I will take Bulls tickets when offered though and am not as partisan as on other sports.

Klay was up there as a big discussion point as it is awful. I am not athletic and a seven month lay-off from running due to an assortment of injuries has got me down. I can only imagine what it is like to lose two years to a guy as good as he is (and, as you say, apparently a genuinely nice guy).

The fact that the #1 draft pick is a clear doppelganger for Jerry from Cheer? Well, that was my "WTF?" this morning when they ran through the draft. Cos I live in BULLS country now, and the draft is morning news.

[ursus arctos]

This is very true

These catastrophic injuries are just awful

dglh, are you under any familial pressure to follow the Pacers now that you are in the general vicinity?

[Incandenza]

No love for the Warriors, but Klay seems like one of the nicest and most grounded players in the league and this fucking sucks for him.

[caja-dglh]

[caja-dglh]

Anyone want to start a 2020/21 Thread?

[jason voorhees]

congratsinca.

[Hot Pepsi]

The other thing about LeBron that is so impressive (and with Kobe to a degree) is that he went straight from high school to the NBA. Y'all might remember this, but Kemp went straight from high school to the NBA and did well. But then there were some busts, guys who had some off-court problems likely tied to immaturity that is common for 18 year olds but perhaps expanded when adding the income of playing professionally. Then Kobe came along and did well minus some power struggles with Shaq (which I'd put more on Shaq since he was the veteran and should have been able to lead) and I have no idea what happened with the rape case so I can't speak to that. LeBron basically entered the league and was a leader right away. Massive maturity at an age when maturity is not common.

BTW as a side note, I was fascinated by the discourse surrounding high schoolers going straight to the NBA. On one hand, the minor moral panic was clearly a product of NCAA concerned about money. On the other hand, that panic was very much about young black men. None of the sports reporters cared about white teenagers playing professional tennis, for example.

That moral panic has been over for a while.

There may have been a racial element to it, but there was, in fact, quite a lot of coverage of the trouble that Jennifer Capriati got into. It's not proportional to the equivalent in the NBA but then the NBA is way more popular than tennis in the US.

The problem was, and maybe still is, that the NBA didn't do enough to give the very young players the right structure.

Hockey has a long history of players leaving home as young as 13 to live with "billet" families to play junior hockey so Conor McDavid, for example, had been living away from home and handling his business for a while before he was in the NHL. Sidney Crosby lived with Mario Lemieux when he joined the Penguins. MLS has done that too. As I recall, Bobby Convey lived with GM Dave Kasper when he joined DC United at age 15. Freddy Adu was living with his mom, so that's not an excuse for him. Baseball doesn't have a lot of young players, but the ones they do have are usually carefully controlled.

But I recall reading about KJ joining the Wolves and it sounded like he was just living in an apartment with a bunch of his teenage friends from back home who just mooched off him and played video games all day. Of course, he turned out ok. But it didn't seem like anyone was really on top of the situation. There was that guy that MJ drafted to the Wizards - Kwame Brown, I think. He was first overall and, as I recall, he had no guidance whatsoever. He didn't know anything about nutrition, for example, or how not to get pulled over for speeding (narrator: don't speed.)

Lebron was much better prepared. I don't know to what extent that was because of the Cavs, his family, his "people" or all three.

[Hot Pepsi]

LeBron has done more to alter the owner/player dynamic more than any other individual in North American sports.

It is an underappreciated part of his legacy.

I don't know to what extent he altered it or if he is just the most prominent example among a bunch of NBA players who realized their personal power.

I think it is somewhat NBA-specific, unfortunately. In no other major team sport does one player have so much influence. I'd argue the top player on an NBA team has more influence on the team's fortunes than even an quarterback in the NFL.

[danielmak]

The other thing about LeBron that is so impressive (and with Kobe to a degree) is that he went straight from high school to the NBA. Y'all might remember this, but Kemp went straight from high school to the NBA and did well. But then there were some busts, guys who had some off-court problems likely tied to immaturity that is common for 18 year olds but perhaps expanded when adding the income of playing professionally. Then Kobe came along and did well minus some power struggles with Shaq (which I'd put more on Shaq since he was the veteran and should have been able to lead) and I have no idea what happened with the rape case so I can't speak to that. LeBron basically entered the league and was a leader right away. Massive maturity at an age when maturity is not common.

BTW as a side note, I was fascinated by the discourse surrounding high schoolers going straight to the NBA. On one hand, the minor moral panic was clearly a product of NCAA concerned about money. On the other hand, that panic was very much about young black men. None of the sports reporters cared about white teenagers playing professional tennis, for example.

[ursus arctos]

LeBron has done more to alter the owner/player dynamic more than any other individual in North American sports.

It is an underappreciated part of his legacy.

[Incandenza]

The Lakers were an absolute basket case before LeBron came. It wasn't like him joining Wade in Miami. Him regularly taking Cleveland to the finals and winning in the second year back after he rejoined him is one of the craziest things in NBA history IMHO.

[Cal Alamein]

I'm by no means an expert since I have only peripherally paid attention to NBA since the early 90s. And then I never saw players like West or Russel. Given that, of the players I have seen and watched closely, I'd probably go Magic, Jordan, Kareem, Bird, LeBron, Shaq, Dr. Jay.

You can tell from that list that it's stacked based on my peak watching time. I also assume almost every basketball fan would rank Jordan first. We can see what he meant: he left to play baseball and the Bulls didn't win. He came back and they won. But Magic, for me, was such a unique player. I assume had he ducked out like Jordan, the same dip would have happened to the Lakers. And I have no idea about stats in basketball because I don't follow it close enough. I don't know where Bird ranks.

But there is one thing about most of those other players other than Shaq: they were amazing, they won or lost with one team. LeBron's skills can be shown by lifting a Cleveland team that has always been in the dumps. But Miami was already a winner. The Lakers had been down but certainly built around him. In other words, he has moved to teams that could win. He feels a little bit like Pep or Mourinho. These guys don't go to Sunderland or Koln or Roma. LeBron has not gone to cap stifled teams that were crap and couldn't build with him. Again, the Lakers were down and it seems like they won with two stars and a bunch of mid-level talent. But the Lakers aren't the Knicks.

What about you Cal? Who are your top players?

I too have only peripherally paid attention to the NBA of late. Your list is about what mine would be. As far as the greatest, Jordan, Kobe and LeBron are the best I have seen and I'd marginally give the GOAT to LeBron. His overall ability along w/ his size is so powerful. Scary to think that in the future there will only be more Giannis/7-footer types who easily bring the ball up, shoot 3's, and are always capable of a triple-double.

I like the Sunderland or Koln or Roma comparison.

[Hot Pepsi]

Most people in the media were picking the Clippers ahead of the Lakers. The Lakers played like garbage in the bubble before the playoffs started, and they were pretty bad in Game 1 against the Trailblazers. Some people were picking the Blazers as a spicy upset pick, and then after Game 1 that didn't seem that crazy of an idea.

The Clippers were #2 in the West, and they quite likely would have been ahead of the Lakers if not for Paul George missing the start of the season, and Kawhi's typical load management.

I think NBA pundits want the NBA playoffs to be less predictable than they actually are. I got the sense that this year was more wide open than usual, though, and not just because of the bubble. So that's good.

The NHL playoffs are a bit too unpredictable. As the Puck Soup podcast guys were pointing out, it's harder for fans to get interested in the draft and all of the offseason free agency moves if it doesn't feel like the overall quality of a teams' roster correlates to its chances of winning the Cup.

I heard that somebody calculated that NBA series would have to be best of 11 to nearly always ensure that the "best team" won while the NHL would have to go to best of 51 or something like that. I'm not sure I heard that right, but it sounds about right.

[danielmak]

Just upper echelon? In addition to Jordan and Magic, I'm curious who else you'd rank above him.

I'm by no means an expert since I have only peripherally paid attention to NBA since the early 90s. And then I never saw players like West or Russel. Given that, of the players I have seen and watched closely, I'd probably go Magic, Jordan, Kareem, Bird, LeBron, Shaq, Dr. Jay.

You can tell from that list that it's stacked based on my peak watching time. I also assume almost every basketball fan would rank Jordan first. We can see what he meant: he left to play baseball and the Bulls didn't win. He came back and they won. But Magic, for me, was such a unique player. I assume had he ducked out like Jordan, the same dip would have happened to the Lakers. And I have no idea about stats in basketball because I don't follow it close enough. I don't know where Bird ranks.

But there is one thing about most of those other players other than Shaq: they were amazing, they won or lost with one team. LeBron's skills can be shown by lifting a Cleveland team that has always been in the dumps. But Miami was already a winner. The Lakers had been down but certainly built around him. In other words, he has moved to teams that could win. He feels a little bit like Pep or Mourinho. These guys don't go to Sunderland or Koln or Roma. LeBron has not gone to cap stifled teams that were crap and couldn't build with him. Again, the Lakers were down and it seems like they won with two stars and a bunch of mid-level talent. But the Lakers aren't the Knicks.

What about you Cal? Who are your top players?

[Incandenza]

They had the second best regular season record, and weren't at all far behind Milwaukee

Most people in the media were picking the Clippers ahead of the Lakers. The Lakers played like garbage in the bubble before the playoffs started, and they were pretty bad in Game 1 against the Trailblazers. Some people were picking the Blazers as a spicy upset pick, and then after Game 1 that didn't seem that crazy of an idea.

The Clippers were #2 in the West, and they quite likely would have been ahead of the Lakers if not for Paul George missing the start of the season, and Kawhi's typical load management.

[Cal Alamein]

My friend texted me that LeBron has been in every single final except last year during the last decade more or less. I wouldn't rank him above Jordan or Magic, but there is no doubt that he is upper echelon.

Just upper echelon? In addition to Jordan and Magic, I'm curious who else you'd rank above him.

And congrats Inca.

[ursus arctos]

They had the second best regular season record, and weren't at all far behind Milwaukee

[Hot Pepsi]

Were the Lakers regarded as the “best” team this year? Because, if so, we could end up with all the championships going to the teams that probably would have won them anyway even without the pandemic. The Lightning were certainly not a surprise.

But we still face the prospect of an Astros-Braves World Series, which would be awful. But baseball doesn’t deserve anything good right now.

[Incandenza]

He set a record for the highest 2PT shooting percentage in this finals, beating his own record. He also has the fifth-best percentage for 2PTs in the Finals.

[danielmak]

Probably good you didn't go to Staples given reports I'm getting from friends in LA.

I bounced back and forth between this game and the Astros-Rays baseball game. Lakers clobbered Miami tonight. The rebounding was so dominant. Very impressive. Congrats, Inca. The Lakers are obviously one of the flagship teams in the league, but there has been a drought.

My friend texted me that LeBron has been in every single final except last year during the last decade more or less. I wouldn't rank him above Jordan or Magic, but there is no doubt that he is upper echelon.

[Incandenza]

My twins are 7 years old, and they had never seen a Lakers championship before now. Glad that wait has finally been put to rest.

I'm not one of the people out in front of Staples, but I get it. Fuck this pandemic, we need a parade. Hopefully a few more weeks and we can celebrate again for the Dodgers.

Jimmy Butler...what can I say? From the Bulls to the Timberwolves, to the Sixers...glad he's finally with a well-run team and he showed everyone what he can do. Just such crappy luck for the Heat that they lost Adebayo and Dragic in Game 1. To win two games without his 2 best teammates is outstanding, and that game 5 performance was legendary. I'm a big fan of performances where a player from a losing team has a claim to be the MVP. If it had gone to Game 7 and Butler was close to game 5 tonight and in a game 7, he would have had a great claim. Should have been LeBron in 2015, for example (he lost on a 7-4 vote to Iguodala).